Searching for Purely Chaotic Systems

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    Chaotic Systems
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SUMMARY

This discussion centers on the existence of purely chaotic systems that operate in a non-deterministic manner, emphasizing the need for absolute chaos rather than relative chaos. Two criteria are established: the systems must not be influenced by underlying deterministic factors, and they must not merely appear random due to measurement limitations. The conversation highlights quantum mechanics, specifically the behavior of electrons in momentum eigenstates, as a potential example of true chaos, where position measurements yield fundamentally random results independent of measurement error.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of chaos theory and its principles
  • Familiarity with quantum mechanics, particularly momentum eigenstates
  • Knowledge of deterministic versus non-deterministic systems
  • Basic concepts of measurement error in scientific experiments
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  • Research the implications of chaos theory in physical systems
  • Study quantum mechanics focusing on the uncertainty principle
  • Explore examples of non-deterministic systems in nature
  • Investigate the role of measurement in quantum mechanics and its effects on observed randomness
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Physicists, researchers in chaos theory, and students of quantum mechanics seeking to deepen their understanding of chaotic systems and their implications in scientific research.

eeka chu
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Are there any systems that we know of that operate in a purely chaotic, none deterministic manner? I mean in an absolute sense, as opposed to "more chaotic than...".

I have two other criteria that I'd like to apply;

1.) systems that we don't suspect may be being determined by something we're in the process of researching. (noise in electronics appears chaotic until you know about ionisation currents, crystal boundries, crystal defects etc).

2.) it can't be a system that merely appears random due to canonically conjoined variables making it impossible to produce an ultimate measurement (e.g. particle momentum & location). such systems aren't necessarily operating in a purely chaotic way, the uncertainty can only be directly linked to measuring error - indeed, in the example given, there are quite a lot of factors we could use to predict momentums and locations. In a purely chaotic system, no predictive factors will exist for it's future.
 
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Well chaotic != random.

But if I have an electron in a momentum eigenstate a position meassurement is purely random, not due to meassurement error but due to the fundamental nature of QM.
 

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