Second Law and "Hidden Variables"

In summary, the conversation discussed the concept of negentropy and its relation to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The paper "Irreversibility in Collapse-Free Quantum Dynamics and the Second Law of Thermodynamics" proposed that non-linear CPT-violating modifications of quantum dynamics could explain both the problems of quantum measurement and the irreversibility of statistical mechanics. The term negentropy was also mentioned in relation to emergent order in systems driven out of equilibrium. Another paper "Statistical Physics of Adaptation" discussed the tendency of driven many-particle systems to self-organize into states formed through reliable absorption and dissipation of work energy from the surrounding environment. The conversation also touched on the idea of entropy being a resistance or utilization of
  • #1
Jimster41
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Does QM uncertainty cause/explain the Second Law of Thermodynamics? If so is entropy the contribution of hidden variables, to our classical world? How about negentropy?

http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0605031

Irreversibility in Collapse-Free Quantum Dynamics and the Second Law of Thermodynamics
M. B. Weissman
(Submitted on 2 May 2006)
Proposals to solve the problems of quantum measurement via non-linear CPT-violating modifications of quantum dynamics are argued to provide a possible fundamental explanation for the irreversibility of statistical mechanics as well. The argument is expressed in terms of collapse-free accounts. The reverse picture, in which statistical irreversibility generates quantum irreversibility, is argued to be less satisfactory because it leaves the Born probability rule unexplained.

Comments: 13 pages
Subjects:
 
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  • #2
Jimster41 said:
How about negentropy?
Negative entropy? Improbable if not impossible. That's like negative gravity. I don't think it's possible.

I was just thinking about something along these lines a few days ago but haven't come to any definitive conclusions yet. I will have to read the paper later.
 
  • #4
Is that supposed to be like "resistance" to entropy?
 
  • #5
jerromyjon said:
Negative entropy? Improbable if not impossible. That's like negative gravity. I don't think it's possible.

It's intuitively convenient to imagine processes that increase entropy as instead consuming negative-entropy. For example, instead of seeing life as increasing entropy you can view it as consuming negentropy. The math is exactly identical, modulo some cancelled-out negative signs, and no new physical phenomenon is being postulated.
 
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  • #6
It's useful in talking about emergent order in systems driven from equilibrium.

They don't use the term "negentropy", but this paper discusses the phenomenon of emergent order (locally decreasing entropy) in systems driven out of equilibrium - and how it relates to dissipative efficiency, which is related, as I understand it (and per the wiki) to relative rate of entropy production (though I think that is controversial)http://arxiv.org/pdf/1412.1875v1.pdf
Statistical Physics of Adaptation
Nikolai Perunov, Robert Marsland, Jeremy England
(Submitted on 5 Dec 2014)
All living things exhibit adaptations that enable them to survive and reproduce in the natural environment that they inhabit. From a biological standpoint, it has long been understood that adaptation comes from natural selection, whereby maladapted individuals do not pass their traits effectively to future generations. However, we may also consider the phenomenon of adaptation from the standpoint of physics, and ask whether it is possible to delineate what the difference is in terms of physical properties between something that is well-adapted to its surrounding environment, and something that is not. In this work, we undertake to address this question from a theoretical standpoint. Building on past fundamental results in far-from-equilibrium statistical mechanics, we demonstrate a generalization of the Helmholtz free energy for the finite-time stochastic evolution of driven Newtonian matter. By analyzing this expression term by term, we are able to argue for a general tendency in driven many-particle systems towards self-organization into states formed through exceptionally reliable absorption and dissipation of work energy from the surrounding environment. Subsequently, we illustrate the mechanism of this general tendency towards physical adaptation by analyzing the process of random hopping in driven energy landscapes.
Comments: 23 preprint pages, 4 figures
Subjects: Biological Physics (physics.bio-ph); Statistical Mechanics (cond-mat.stat-mech); Populations and Evolution (q-bio.PE)
Cite as: arXiv:1412.1875 [physics.bio-ph]
(or arXiv:1412.1875v1 [physics.bio-ph] for this version)
Submission history
From: Jeremy England [view email]
[v1] Fri, 5 Dec 2014 01:46:11 GMT (1594kb,D)
Which authors of this paper are endorsers? | http://arxiv.org/help/mathjax/)
 
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  • #7
Strilanc said:
It's intuitively convenient to imagine processes that increase entropy as instead consuming negative-entropy. For example, instead of seeing life as increasing entropy you can view it as consuming negentropy. The math is exactly identical, modulo some cancelled-out negative signs, and no new physical phenomenon is being postulated.
Thanks, I get that. Two wrongs do make a right.

Jimster41 said:
this paper discusses the phenomenon of emergent order
I haven't read either of these papers you referred to yet, or the book which sounds quite interesting as well, but I can say one thing... Our universe appears to be "order" emerged, and constantly assaulted, from and by entropy.
 
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  • #8
jerromyjon said:
Thanks, I get that. Two wrongs do make a right.I haven't read either of these papers you referred to yet, or the book which sounds quite interesting as well, but I can say one thing... Our universe appears to be "order" emerged, and constantly assaulted, from and by entropy.

I agree, I just can't help wondering about the details of it's apparent resistance.
 
  • #9
Jimster41 said:
I just can't help wondering about the details of its apparent resistance.
I suddenly am urged to think in terms more like the Carnot cycle. Not so much as a resistance, I'm thinking it might be more of a "utilization" of entropic energy, so to speak. In fear this may be seen as leaning towards a personal theory, I mean this simply as an interpretational analogy. Biology obviously overcomes environmental chaos by some truly phenomenal means.
 
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  • #10
jerromyjon said:
Negative entropy? Improbable if not impossible. That's like negative gravity. I don't think it's possible.
I was just thinking about something along these lines a few days ago but haven't come to any definitive conclusions yet. I will have to read the paper later.

Yes, I don't like the term either. Entropy itself is always greater than zero. S = k lnW. W >1 so the ln is positive and monotonic increasing. If you're inclined to think in terms of information and its loss, then I suppose 'negentropy' could be equated with information, and entropy related to information loss. Is there any advantage whatever in using the other term? Does it add anything?
 

1. What is the Second Law of Thermodynamics?

The Second Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental principle in physics that states that the total entropy of a closed system can never decrease over time. In simpler terms, it means that the disorder or randomness of a system will always tend to increase.

2. How does the Second Law relate to the concept of "Hidden Variables"?

Hidden variables are hypothetical variables that could potentially explain the apparent randomness of quantum mechanics. However, the Second Law of Thermodynamics suggests that there can be no hidden variables that determine the behavior of a system, as it would violate the law by decreasing entropy.

3. Can the Second Law be violated or reversed?

No, the Second Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental principle and has been extensively observed and tested. It has never been violated or reversed in any known physical process.

4. Why is the Second Law considered to be one of the most important principles in science?

The Second Law of Thermodynamics is considered to be one of the most important principles in science because it has wide-ranging applications in various fields such as physics, chemistry, biology, and engineering. It helps us understand the behavior of energy and matter in the universe and has significant implications for the functioning of natural systems and technological devices.

5. Are there any exceptions to the Second Law?

While the Second Law of Thermodynamics holds true for the vast majority of physical systems, there are a few exceptions. For example, certain microscopic systems or processes involving quantum mechanics may exhibit temporary decreases in entropy. However, these exceptions do not violate the overall principle of the Second Law.

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