Separation of variables technique

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the separation of variables technique in the context of solving a first-order non-linear partial differential equation (PDE). Participants explore the method's application, its derivation, and the nature of mathematical tricks in problem-solving.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a specific equation involving variables \(u\) and \(v\) and questions how the proposed solution using separation of variables was derived.
  • Another participant suggests that mathematical solutions can sometimes appear as if they are pulled from thin air, emphasizing the importance of recognizing effective methods rather than understanding every step of the derivation.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the relevance of certain mathematical tricks to the original equation being discussed.
  • There is a suggestion that finding solutions often involves trial and error, with many failed attempts leading to a successful approach that may seem magical to others.
  • A participant provides a reformulation of the original PDE, suggesting that it may be more familiar when expressed in a different form, and discusses the standard method of assuming a separable solution.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the separation of variables is a standard method with geometric interpretations, arguing against the characterization of it as merely a trick.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of mathematical problem-solving, with some emphasizing the trial-and-error aspect while others advocate for a more structured understanding of the separation of variables technique. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the characterization of the method or its derivation.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the potential for confusion regarding the relationship between various mathematical techniques and the specific equation under discussion, indicating that assumptions and definitions may not be fully explored.

PhyAmateur
Messages
103
Reaction score
2
If $$u=\frac{1}{2} E^2$$ and $$v=\frac{1}{2}B^2$$

and we have that $$\frac{\partial L}{\partial u} \frac{\partial L}{\partial v} = -1$$

The author says: to obtain explicit solution of the above, one must resort to techniques such as separation of variables in particular coordinate systems. For example, if one supposes that the solution separates multiplicatively in (u,v) coordinates one obtains:

$$L = ± \sqrt{\alpha - \beta E^2}\sqrt{\gamma - \delta B^2}$$ where $$\beta \gamma =1$$

How was this obtained? I didn't get this method of integration?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Sometimes mathematicians pull these out of a hat. The fact that it works is the important thing and to remember the trick.

I saw one recently in deriving the integral with x^n*e^(-x) dx where the author differentiated the constant to manipulate the integral into an easily integrable form. It was quite cool and I had never seen its like before. I had to wrestle with it for awhile before I accepted it.

http://www.physics.miami.edu/~nearing/mathmethods/mathematical_methods-three.pdf

see section 1.2 on Parametric Differentiation
 
I do not know how this is related to the equation I have?
 
It is another example of a mathematical trick.

There does not have to be a clear way to find those approaches. You can try many of them until one works. Then you throw away the 100 failed attempts and take the one that worked, which looks like magic to others afterwards ("how did he come up with that formula?").
With experience, you can save some time and find good approaches faster.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: John M. Carr and PhyAmateur
jedishrfu said:
Sometimes mathematicians pull these out of a hat. The fact that it works is the important thing and to remember the trick.
They like to make it look like they magically pulled it out of a hat. Actually it is the result of "trying one thing after another" until something finally works!
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: John M. Carr and jedishrfu
HallsofIvy said:
They like to make it look like they magically pulled it out of a hat. Actually it is the result of "trying one thing after another" until something finally works!

Yes, I heard Gauss was famous for this. His proofs were so polished that no one could figure out how he arrived at the conclusion.

A similar case could be made for Ramanujan where he derived so many conjectures based on an old British math book:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synopsis_of_Pure_Mathematics
 
This is a first order non-linear pde, it may look more familiar if you write it like

[itex]\tfrac{ \partial z}{\partial u} \tfrac{ \partial z}{\partial v} = \tfrac{ \partial z}{\partial (\tfrac{1}{2}x^2)} \tfrac{ \partial z}{\partial (\tfrac{1}{2}y^2)} = (\tfrac{1}{x}\tfrac{ \partial z}{\partial x})(\tfrac{1}{y} \tfrac{ \partial z}{ \partial y}) = \tfrac{1}{xy}\tfrac{ \partial z}{\partial x} \tfrac{ \partial z}{ \partial y} = - 1 \rightarrow = \tfrac{ \partial z}{\partial x} \tfrac{ \partial z}{\partial y} = - xy[/itex]

with z = L, E = x, B = y.

Here are examples on how to deal with these in general




In this case there is another method being used, that of assuming a separable solution from the get-go, but it can also be solved with those methods in the videos. It's most definitely not a trick it's a standard method of solution with a nice geometric interpretation. Let this be a lesson never to accept the word 'trick' again ;)

You basically just write L = f(u)g(v) and plug it into (dL/du)(dL/dv) = - 1 to get g(v)[dg/dv] = - 1/f(u)[df/du] and since both sides of this are equal to two different functions depending on two different variables, both have to be equal to a constant, i.e.
[itex]g(v)[dg/dv] = C \rightarrow gdg = Cdv \rightarrow (1/2)g^2 = D + Cv \rightarrow g = \sqrt{\gamma - 2\delta v}= \sqrt{\gamma - \delta B^2}[/itex]
and similarly for the other side, exact same method which gives you the same form of solution so you get the full solution you were given.

Elsgoltz - Partial Differential Equations & the Calculus of Variations has a good chapter on all this.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
3K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
936
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
7K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K