News Should prayer be banned on public transportation?

[verty]

Well interestingly I suspect that there are some who pray loudly just to show how much they can annoy others with it.

They are evidencing their belief, that's the whole point.

 

[MeJennifer]

They are evidencing their belief, that's the whole point.

There are many who are religious and do show discretion in public. Some religions even advice it. For instance in Christianity.

 

[MeJennifer]

"Though I may not agree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it."

-Denis Diderot

I most certainly would not. I think this is generally a rather self destructive strategy for life.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

I most certainly would not. I think this is generally a rather self destructive strategy for life.

I really needn't say more, you said it all right there.

 

[MeJennifer]

I really needn't say more, you said it all right there.

Good, I have no problem with being uncontested!

 

[sas3]

You can look at this form another point, what if a christian was sitting next to a satanist and the satanist started praying, now the christian is in the atheist position.
See how annoying that is.
More then likely both the christian and the satanist would start fighting and both would get kicked off or whatever.
But you see my point.

However, I can't see making this a law. Let the flight attendants and crew take care of it if it becomes annoying.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I would like to bring this discussion back to the topic. No discussion of whether prayer should be banned would be meaningful without a definition of prayer. As for the definition of prayer given, I was surprised that in a forum for physicists, no one could follow my argument that an atheist, who does not believe in a deity could then not believe in a conversation with one. I am not insisting that you agree with the argument, just understand it.

MeJennifer, please accept my apology for unclarity. It is a taboo among my ancestors to write or speak the name of the deity. Although I suffer lapses, I do try to keep this tradition for reasons which I keep to myself. At any rate, the term "lord" is often used in its place and my question could easily be made more clear in this fashion. Is the following a prayer?

"Lord, I hope this plane takes off on time."

I hope this clears up the issue of pronounciation and you will be able to answer the question.

Evo, although I read your definition of prayer with interest and am considering the idea that when some people say "G-d" it is a prayer and when other people say "G-wd", it is not. Also the idea that repetition can turn a non-prayer into a prayer. None the less, I hope you accept the fact that any definition of what prayer is that you may give is of a relatively academic interest to me. This is because you have already stated that if the prayer is said in a normal speaking voice it should not be banned. I have a more practical interest in MeJennifer's definition since she would ban prayer. I fear that without a definition of what exactly it is that she would ban, excesses may occur.

 

[twisting_edge]

I would expect some people to ask me to knock it off. Eventually, perhaps the flight crew would also ask me to knock it off. If I did not, that's the point at which I break both my contract with the airline and become in violation of law. As soon as I cross the line of not obeying the flight crew, I would expect to be thrown off. That has nothing to do with me annoying another passenger.

OK, that's a fair observation. It is also what the imams did, refusing to go to their assigned seats.

 

[russ_watters]

Indeed, but I am not going to let you pass a law PREVENTING anyone else from doing whatever it is they feel like doing. No matter how loud or annoying you are.

No need to pass more - we have plenty of laws like that. As Evo has already said, they apply quite strictly to conduct on airplanes.

 

[russ_watters]

...I was surprised that in a forum for physicists, no one could follow my argument that an atheist, who does not believe in a deity could then not believe in a conversation with one. I am not insisting that you agree with the argument, just understand it.

I think we followed you just fine, but the problem is that you're missing your own point! An athiest does not believe in conversations with God, and that is why it is offensive to hear people attempting it.

 

[Evo]

As for the definition of prayer given, I was surprised that in a forum for physicists, no one could follow my argument that an atheist, who does not believe in a deity could then not believe in a conversation with one.

An atheist doesn't believe that the religious person is having a conversation with a deity, the atheist understands that the religious person believess he is talking to a deity. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Evo, although I read your definition of prayer with interest and am considering the idea that when some people say "G-d" it is a prayer and when other people say "G-wd", it is not. Also the idea that repetition can turn a non-prayer into a prayer. None the less, I hope you accept the fact that any definition of what prayer is that you may give is of a relatively academic interest to me. This is because you have already stated that if the prayer is said in a normal speaking voice it should not be banned. I have a more practical interest in MeJennifer's definition since she would ban prayer. I fear that without a definition of what exactly it is that she would ban, excesses may occur.

The point is moot really, policies are already in place (Disruptive Passenger) that allow the airline personnel to request that the offending passenger stop what they are doing, no matter what they are doing. If they don't comply, the airline personnel will take appropriate action.. As I said, this is ALREADY policy that has been in force for some time. Doesn't seem to have destroyed the industry, it has pretty much gone unnoticed because most passengers use common sense and know not to impinge on other's rights. Gee, no children or babies have been thrown off planes as predicted.

 

[MeJennifer]

As for the definition of prayer given, I was surprised that in a forum for physicists, no one could follow my argument that an atheist, who does not believe in a deity could then not believe in a conversation with one. I am not insisting that you agree with the argument, just understand it.

Well I am an atheist and I do understand what you are talking about.

So from my perspective praying is, an obviously futile, attempt to communicate with a supernatural entity by a person who believes that this supernatural entity is able to receive his communication.

What do you think I am not supposed to understand?

MeJennifer, please accept my apology for unclarity. It is a taboo among my ancestors to write or speak the name of the deity. Although I suffer lapses, I do try to keep this tradition for reasons which I keep to myself. At any rate, the term "lord" is often used in its place and my question could easily be made more clear in this fashion.

Good for you that you have religious traditions but honestly you don't know when someone is praying?

Is the following a prayer?

"Lord, I hope this plane takes off on time."

A very short one and likely to annoy very few people.
But there is a difference between a one-liner that is part of common speech and a long prayer. I would assume that a man with a religious tradition like yourself would be able to differentiate right?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

The point is moot really, policies are already in place (Disruptive Passenger) that allow the airline personnel to request that the offending passenger stop what they are doing, no matter what they are doing.

As I had said at another time and in another context, this is not about appropriate responses to inappropriate behavior. It is about whether praying in a normal speaking voice is inappropriate behavior. You have already stated that it is not.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

A very short one and likely to annoy very few people.

How short? Your definition of what a prayer is made no mention of length. Are you changing your definition now?

But there is a difference between a one-liner that is part of common speech and a long prayer. I would assume that a man with a religious tradition like yourself would be able to differentiate right?

In my tradition there is a distinction made between prayer and blessing. Is this what you are talking about? It would be entrapment for the airline to provide a Kosher meal and then remove the passenger for saying a blessing over it. The meal simply cannot be eaten without the blessing. The blessing asks no favor of the deity but simply expresses wonder at the ability to extract bread from the earth. It is not normally spoken in English. Punishing it would likely put a strain on airline personel who may not have any training beyond being able to tell the difference between the pronounciation of "G-d" and "G-wd". But it is not a one-liner that is part of common speech.

 

[vanesch]

An annecdote:
In beginning of the year 2002, I took a flight from Geneva to London, and on the same row as I, but on the other side of the aisle, there was a man of Arab origin in traditional clothings saying out loud his prayers in some incomprehensible language to me, jesticulating very wildly, just before we were going to take off...
He was not only taken off the airplane, but we all had to get out, recheck our baggage and have a more severe ID controle. We didn't see the guy anymore when, 3 hours later, we got on the plane again

 

[MeJennifer]

How short? Your definition of what a prayer is made no mention of length. Are you changing your definition now?

You and I already know that this kind of arguing will go nowhere right? Or do you perhaps underestimate me?

What's your definition of Kosher?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

An atheist doesn't believe that the religious person is having a conversation with a deity, the atheist understands that the religious person believess he is talking to a deity. HUGE DIFFERENCE.
QUOTE]
Huge though this difference is, MeJennifer's definition of prayer fails to make note of it. Would you define prayer this way?

"Something that the speaker believes is a conversation with a deity, often asking for something."

This definition would put in the hands of other people the responsibility for determining what you believe. If the airline personel hear you speaking in a normal voice and determine in their minds that you believe you are speaking to "G-d", perhaps they misheard you when you said "G-wd" and heard you say it three times, should they judge your behavior inappropriate. Do you get a warning, or is the fact that you have already broken the rules three time suffice to warrant action?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

saying out loud his prayers in some incomprehensible language to me, jesticulating very wildly

If the language was incomprehensible, then how do you know he was praying?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

You and I already know that this kind of arguing will go nowhere right?

I expect that you are right, however a simple yes or no to the question wouldn't be going so far would it? Is the following a prayer?

"Lord, I hope this airplane take off on time."

What's your definition of Kosher?

The definition is long, tedious, and varied as there is more than one tradition. Suffice it to say that a definition of Kosher is outside the topic at hand.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

An athiest does not believe in conversations with God, and that is why it is offensive to hear people attempting it.

I don't believe in Santa Claus and it is offensive to hear people asking him for favors. But I do not propose to toss kids off of airplanes for doing it. Do you?

 

[MeJennifer]

I expect that you are right, however a simple yes or no to the question wouldn't be going so far would it? Is the following a prayer?

"Lord, I hope this airplane take off on time."

I already wrote that it is a short one. So in other words yes.

The definition is long, tedious, and varied as there is more than one tradition. Suffice it to say that a definition of Kosher is outside the topic at hand.

So then how can we have anything that can be determined Kosher if the definition is perhaps just as hard or perhaps even harder as the definition of prayer?
Anyway it seems you fail to understand the analogy.

 

[MeJennifer]

I don't believe in Santa Claus and it is offensive to hear people asking him for favors. But I do not propose to toss kids off of airplanes for doing it. Do you?

It is clear to me that you are not taking this subject seriously.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

So then how can we have anything that can be determined Kosher if the definition is perhaps just as hard or perhaps even harder as the definition of prayer?

Right you are. But I am not proposing that people be punished for failure to follow an ill-defined rule.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

yes.

Very flights could get off the ground if that is a prayer. Unless we admit that prayers are not fit to be punished.

 

[verty]

There are many who are religious and do show discretion in public. Some religions even advice it. For instance in Christianity.

I think the only reason for religious garb is to stand out. Christians don't have religious garb so I would think they would replace that by praying so that others notice. In all religions one should not be ashamed to admit one's religion, and the way to not be ashamed is to show it. What would God think if you were afraid to show it? He might think you don't love him.

MeJennifer, please accept my apology for unclarity. It is a taboo among my ancestors to write or speak the name of the deity. Although I suffer lapses, I do try to keep this tradition for reasons which I keep to myself.

I'm sure God will be bountiful in reward of your diligence.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

It is clear to me that you are not taking this subject seriously.

I take it deadly seriously. Answer the question.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I'm sure God will be bountiful in reward of your diligence.

Thank you, it is kind of you to say so. I do not share your certainty as I am agnostic through and through.

 

[MeJennifer]

I take it deadly seriously.

No you do not.

Answer the question.

No.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

No.

Wise decision in my opinion. Russ, what say you?

 

[Anttech]

This thread is rather funny

Its smacks of a typical East meets West cultural collision.

In Greece during name days, large Ferry Boats go past Islands in the Aegean. Some of these Islands only have one thing on them, a church. The Ferry will Blow its horn going past, by order of the Captain, when its the saint of that's churches name day, as a form of respect.

If you don't *like* or perhaps if you can't *tolerate* public outbursts of religion, I would advise you not to take any public transport east of German, or South of German. As Far as China...:)

 

[russ_watters]

Wise decision in my opinion. Russ, what say you?

I pretty much agree with MeJennifer: you are arguing minutae for the sake of arguing. This thread has gone beyond useless.

 

[Severian]

I pretty much agree with MeJennifer: you are arguing minutae for the sake of arguing. This thread has gone beyond useless.

I disagree. His question is perfectly valid. The whole thread was attempting to address "Should prayer be banned on public transportation?", so asking for a clear and concise definition of "prayer" seems eminently reasonable.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Here's where we are now as I see it. A prayer is a conversation with a deity. An example of such would be "Lord, I hope the plane takes off on time." Such prayers should be banned from public transportation. MeJennifer, is this a fair description of your stance?

Evo says that she sometimes uses a deity's name in such expressions but is not having a conversation with a deity. I have heard many other people who seem to do the same. But then I can also imagine someone saying "I hope the plane takes off on time" and in their own mind they ARE having a conversation with a deity. What shall we do with these?

Meanwhile, I note that some prayers begin as follows: "Dearly beloved, we are gathered here ..." While this prayer may mention a deity, it is specifically a conversation with the gathered people and not with any deity. What are we to do with these?

 

[Gokul43201]

This definition would put in the hands of other people the responsibility for determining what you believe. If the airline personel hear you ...

Are airlines "publine transportation"? I think not. They aren't, for instance, subsidized by the FTA. If true, that would make any discussion of what should be allowed in airlines offtopic to this thread.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Russ, you have said that an atheist is offended when they hear people praying (not an exact quote). I take it you do not consider this an examle of arguing minutae. Now I ask you is this an argument in support of a ban on prayer on public transportation, the topic of this thread?

If no, then what is it an argument in support of? In other words, why isn't it minutae? If yes, then why is it arguing minutae to point out that I don't believe in Santa and am offended when I hear what amount to prayers to him? To me it seems quite the same argument.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Are airlines "publine transportation"? I think not. They aren't, for instance, subsidized by the FTA. If true, that would make any discussion of what should be allowed in airlines offtopic to this thread.

Many words have been used in this thread without definition. Rather than ban airlines from being public transportation, I choose to define the term public transportation to include airlines. I will admit that a full and airtight legal definition of public transportation may be difficult to come up with. However, I will delegate the desire for such a definition to the category of "arguing minutae".

I chuckle when I think of a devout Christian taxi driver tagging Evo for saying "Lord, I hope I'm not late." We know she wasn't praying. Let her explain it to the judge.

 

[Gokul43201]

Many words have been used in this thread without definition. Rather than ban airlines from being public transportation, I choose to define the term public transportation to include airlines. I will admit that a full and airtight legal definition of public transportation may be difficult to come up with. However, I will delegate the desire for such a definition to the category of "arguing minutae".

I think most of the rest of us consider that definition vitally important, and prefer to delegate the desire for the definition of prayer to the category of "arguing minutae".

If an airline is wholly privately funded and operated, then they are a whole different ballgame than a taxpayer-funded service, are they not?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

MeJennifer, Gokul43201 is right. The term public transportation probably refers to those vehicles that are run by the state as opposed to those run by private companies such as airlines. I would like to change the topic to "Should prayer be banned on airplanes?". Would this change your stance?

A prayer is a conversation with a deity. An example of such would be "Lord, I hope the plane takes off on time." Such prayers should be banned from airplanes. MeJennifer, is this a fair description of your stance?

I think most public transportation is in the form of busses. I'm not sure about taxis and trains. All of these as well as the terminals that serve them are places of public accommodation. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 forbids discrimination on the basis of religion in these places and therefor a ban on prayer in them would be problematical.

 

[Anttech]

If an airline is wholly privately funded and operated, then they are a whole different ballgame than a taxpayer-funded service, are they not?

Depends where you are, Back to the Greek ship example again. If the captain of a Ferry boat in Greece is late for work, he can be sued for holding up public Transport. The ferry boats are not publicaly funded. Greece is in the EU, and I would expect that law to be the same through-out the region. I suppose it comes down to how important it is to the community, not who funds it.

 

[Hurkyl]

In all religions one should not be ashamed to admit one's religion, and the way to not be ashamed is to show it.

The way not to be ashamed is not to be ashamed. Obnoxiousness is not a virtue.

 

[BobG]

Originally Posted by Mech_Engineer
"Though I may not agree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it."

-Denis Diderot

I most certainly would not. I think this is generally a rather self destructive strategy for life.

A Newt Gingrich fan? Gingrich wants to restrict freedom of speech?

Probably not. You and Gingrich won't be able to agree on which speech should restricted.

 

[vanesch]

If the language was incomprehensible, then how do you know he was praying?

The heavy, repeated jesticulation which was highly reminiscent of some kind of ritual...

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

By the way, Gokul43201, I claim the right to more leeway than MeJennifer. I am proposing that no ban be enacted. So what if I am loose in my definitions. Except of course for argument's sake. MeJennifer proposes a ban and any looseness of definition on her part is of practical import.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

The heavy, repeated jesticulation which was highly reminiscent of some kind of ritual...

That's rather subjective, don't you agree. I'm not saying that he wasn't a nuisance, just focusing on the question of whether he was praying. Did you catch him in a conversation with a deity?

 

[Evo]

Huge though this difference is, MeJennifer's definition of prayer fails to make note of it. Would you define prayer this way?

"Something that the speaker believes is a conversation with a deity, often asking for something."

Yes, that would also be a valid definition. Prayer can be many things to many people.

This definition would put in the hands of other people the responsibility for determining what you believe. If the airline personel hear you speaking in a normal voice and determine in their minds that you believe you are speaking to "G-d", perhaps they misheard you when you said "G-wd" and heard you say it three times, should they judge your behavior inappropriate. Do you get a warning, or is the fact that you have already broken the rules three time suffice to warrant action?

If I am saying it quietly enough, it shouldn't draw any attention. If it does and the stewardess asks me to stop and I stop, there is not a problem.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Yes, that would also be a valid definition. Prayer can be many things to many people.

I extend to you the same leeway I claim for myself. Since you are NOT proposing a ban, as far as I am concerned, you may define prayer as you wish.

I have a private message for you, but your mail box is full and I can't send it. If possible, please make room and delete this paragraph.

 

[vanesch]

That's rather subjective, don't you agree. I'm not saying that he wasn't a nuisance, just focusing on the question of whether he was praying. Did you catch him in a conversation with a deity?

Any ritual behaviour with no obvious practical usage or clearly for sole esthetical value (such as dancing), or resulting from a clear mental disorder (epilepsy), is a form of praying, I'd say, because it must have a symbolic meaning for its author, and is clearly not meant for his fellow citizens around him. Praying doesn't need to be an expression of a dear wish, or a communication with a personified deity. It is a ritual act which has no usage for his fellow citizen or any practical usage for himself (such as putting up his spectacles, or stretching, or burping or whatever). Greeting your sword/flag/picture of your favorite star is a form of prayer. Crossing your fingers is a form of prayer.

The problem was not btw that he was a nuisance. We were a few months after 9/11, on a flight to London, and there was an Arab in traditional clothing doing things which looked a lot like if he was in some kind of religious trance. You'd be careful for less ! (that said, if he really was saying his prayers for the bomb he had brought aboard, he would probably have been more low profile...)

 

[DaveC426913]

I think we followed you just fine, but the problem is that you're missing your own point! An athiest does not believe in conversations with God, and that is why it is offensive to hear people attempting it.

How is that offensive?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Praying doesn't need to be an expression of a dear wish, or a communication with a personified deity.

Indeed, no one except MeJennifer has proposed this definition of prayer. Evo has proposed a slight variation of it.

It is a ritual act which has no usage for his fellow citizen or any practical usage for himself (such as putting up his spectacles, or stretching, or burping or whatever). Greeting your sword/flag/picture of your favorite star is a form of prayer. Crossing your fingers is a form of prayer.

At the moment I have enough on my plate with MeJennifer's definition. I have no comment on anyone else's definition of prayer unless it is attached to a proposal to ban the behavior on airplanes. If you wish for me to pass judgement on this definition, you will need to make that proposal.

 

[BobG]

I think we followed you just fine, but the problem is that you're missing your own point! An athiest does not believe in conversations with God, and that is why it is offensive to hear people attempting it.

How is that offensive?

Is there something that prevents Atheists from being as devoted to and protective of their own belief systems as Christians, Muslims, and other religions?

Whether a push back against being a minority in a mostly Christian society or some other reason, there are many Atheists who are just as zealous about their own beliefs as a "born again" Christian. Lawsuits to remove religious symbols from city seals (re Los Angeles city seal) go beyond just logic. Spanish missions played a part in the city's history whether you believe in the religion or not. In that case, it turned into an attempt to erase portions of history that Atheists wished hadn't happened.