Should songs be under government consent?

36
2
Thug life. Ya I'll promote it. Should PF censor me too? Ohnoes but the government ALREADY put the song in the Library of Congress!!!

OGHyutNq-S4[/youtube] "**** all you hoes, get a grip... it's all good." Shiiiit he's promoting hustling to survive in the ghetto. GET THAT MAN! [MEDIA=youtube]gyLupP7stLo[/MEDIA] This man comes not too far from where I live. I've been to galloway many times. P reign had to hustle hard to make it to where he is now. Much respect. The list goes on. You too should go live life in a ghetto for at least a year. Get a better sense of reality.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
36
2
Comparing the moral issue of pornography in the late 20th century with violence and gangs is nonsense.

Funny, you say I don't have a right to impose what I think of others. So you think in some other parallel universe violence should be condoned?

There isn't anything wrong with girls listening to sexual songs, but I said it ticks me off because I have a little sister who others can take advantage of. But this thread is geared toward violence.

And to your last point, "there is nothing wrong with people ... not taking **** from anyone": this thread isn't about people getting bullied... Its about gangs and childish violence.
No sense? YOU only think that it's a serious violence issue. Talking about issues people face living in the ghetto is very much the same as trying to censor pornography or rock music or anything like that. This ******** argument of 'it causes deaths, it causes violence, it causes gangs.' has been tried so many times throughout history to try and shut people up by people who don't like listening to reality of life, trust me you'll get no where this time either.

I said you have no right to impose what you believe ON others. What does that have to do with parallel universes? Calling for government censorship on something just because you don't like it, regardless of whatever ******** 'evidence' you have in support is very much trying to force your world view on others. That's what censorship is all about. An attempt to force a worldview (it's oh-so-bad!)

Why include that example in the OP. No one cares about what your sister listens. It seems to me you included SPECIFICALLY as evidence of what is 'polluting' the young minds of children today. You wouldn't just include it because it 'ticks you off that your sister listens to it' cause that has nothing to do with the rest of your post.

No that second song isn't about promoting "gang-violence" really. It's about standing up and getting what you want when others are trying to push you down. Thug life in the truest sense of the word. If you wanted to make a thread about gang violence then make one, why make one ridiculously stupid thread about censoring music.
 
I think this kind of music is bad, but I don't think it should be censored. Really, I could care less at what kids listen nowadays, I know that my children aren't going to listen to this, and that's all that matters. And I will raise them in a place where there are no gangs so they won't get attacked by them too.

Many people are self destructive, I don't think passing laws to regulate them help in any way in the long term, that's what communists wanted they wanted everybody to follow their guidelines so society would be better, it's good in theory, but I think it's a highly utopic idea moreover it's based on the idea that everybody should help each other.
Not my case, call me an egoist but I can't care about everybody nor do I want everybody to follow what I think is right nor do I want to be helped by the government in how I should conduct my life.
If they want to destroy their lives with drugs and gang violence, too bad for them.
 

Hurkyl

Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
14,847
17
36
2
If they want to destroy their lives with drugs and gang violence, too bad for them
Keep thinking they want that over a normal life away from the ghetto. There probably are some like that but the majority of people? No way. They want what everyone else wants... money and a good life.
 

Disconnected

Gold Member
111
0
You don't see people come out of their house shooting people after playing call of duty.
Actually several school shootings have been "blamed" on video games.
For example (Yes, it's wiki, I know, I know): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre#Video_games

(Side note: I want to go on the record to say that "Juicy" is a 5 star song with a 1 star hook. And why the sparkle effect? WHY?)

I still don't see how censorship could be effectively put in place. Now an age limit thing similar to movies or videogames, I guess could work, but I really don't see outright banning of any music.
 

Ryan_m_b

Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
5,754
706
Now an age limit thing similar to movies or videogames, I guess could work, but I really don't see outright banning of any music.
That would work about as well as ratings for movies and videogames now, badly. Very few shops actually bother to check ID (who cares? Unlike alcohol there really aren't any repercussions if someone finds them to be selling underage) and kids can always order it over the internet or get older friend/brother/mother to buy it.
 

Disconnected

Gold Member
111
0
That would work about as well as ratings for movies and videogames now, badly. Very few shops actually bother to check ID (who cares? Unlike alcohol there really aren't any repercussions if someone finds them to be selling underage) and kids can always order it over the internet or get older friend/brother/mother to buy it.
Yeah, I must have forgotten to put the little addition "but that wouldn't really work". I mean, a large number of people download their music illegally anyways, I really don't forsee TPB checking ID any time ever.
 

Ryan_m_b

Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
5,754
706
Yeah, I must have forgotten to put the little addition "but that wouldn't really work". I mean, a large number of people download their music illegally anyways, I really don't forsee TPB checking ID any time ever.
Adding to that is the fact that compared to a decade ago most people stream music rather than buy/download (I did have a link to that ages ago but have forgotten it). Considering no-one has come up with a way to implement reliable identification over the internet (thank god) people could just youtube it. All age restrictions would do is hurt legal music sales slightly and make no difference.
 

Disconnected

Gold Member
111
0
Similarly, if you were to ban these songs, the huge quantity of them already avalible for download/streaming would make it a pretty futile effort.
 

Ryan_m_b

Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
5,754
706
Similarly, if you were to ban these songs, the huge quantity of them already avalible for download/streaming would make it a pretty futile effort.
It would also allow the artists who make these violent songs to assume a veneer of authority by making songs both about violence and busting censorship. Fusing the two issues would nicely confuse the issue for the very people who the censors are trying to stop becoming violence.
 
882
2
I never knew Tipper Gore was a member here and that she had such a passion for Nanoscience...
 
36
2
I'm still waiting for a citation on all this 'music causes violence' non-sense.
 

Disconnected

Gold Member
111
0
Last edited by a moderator:
90
1
You don't see people come out of their house shooting people after playing call of duty. Music has a much more profound affect, I don't know if you live by any ghetto areas but people are moved by these songs. It reinforces the "gangster" and violent things. I've been around in a bad school were your simply scared to walk alone. People ARE moved by these songs. You don't see it, you provide good points but you don't know what extent each influence can play.

Yes, I know music can still be on the internet and the such. But think more long term.. things die over time. Not many people here listens to songs from the 1930s anymore (I don't know if any).
Here's my point: These sorts of things are nice in theory but will be a nightmare in practice. And without you explicitly stating what you mean by "censorship" or "government consent," it's hard to know how to respond!

For instance, I could be persuaded to support limiting play time to certain hours of the day (sort of like late night TV), but an outright ban...well, that's just laughable. Surely that's not what you meant, but I didn't want to assume.




Oh, and on the side, thumbs up to zomgwtf for the Opeth post! Deliverence was my first Opeth album back in high school.
 
882
2
Two quotes about censorship that I feel are very poignant:
Alfred Whitney Griswold said:
Books won't stay banned. They won't burn. Ideas won't go to jail. In the long run of history, the censor and the inquisitor have always lost. The only weapon against bad ideas is better ideas.
Noam Chomsky said:
If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.
As has been said over and over in this thread - censorship is a slippery slope. Where does it stop. Don't start treating people like sheep and slaves - let them make up their own minds. Only better ideas will prevail, not extinguishing those ideas. Treat the underlying problem - not the symptom.
 
Last edited:
36
2
Depending on the particular belief, of course.
If this is an attempt to say what I'm saying is imposing a belief then I don't buy it... if not then I don't get it.

I'm saying he has no right to do it, not that he can't believe he can do it and that I'll get the government to stop him from believing it. Not comparable.
 
I think it's cause you're equating listening to 'gansta music' equates to becoming a 'gangsta' yourself. Go outside and live in the real world man. You have no ****ing idea what you're talking about.

Also you're making factual claims in your posts I want citations for these in your next post or I'm reporting you. It might be General discussion but I don't think the rules are lenient enough to let you just say whatever the **** you want with no backing.

PS. Another ******** point you try to make is that those songs would hardly cause as 'much damage', however imaginary that damage is... Biker gangs are FAR more dangerous around Canada than any other gangs. They hardly listen to gangster rap LOL!
Whats with the cursing and attacks? Relax yourself.

Music Preferences and Their Relationship to Behaviors, Beliefs, and Attitudes toward Aggression
http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED507397.pdf

Tragic Narratives in Popular Culture: Depictions of Homicide in Rap Music.
doi: 10.1111/j.1573-7861.2009.01122.x

Taken from abstract:

"Results show violent death was constructed in glorified ways, incorporated cautionary tales, or used as an analogy for powerful rhyming. The major themes found in these homicide-related rap lyrics were the normalization of killing, respect maintenance, confrontation with the power structure, vengeance, and masculine confrontation. Homicide was almost always male on male. Careful consideration is given to the multiple meanings of homicide, particularly the ways rappers have appropriated the word “killing” and transformed it into a term that indicates creative success."

Whats powerful about music aside from its sheer influential power is its ability to change paradigms and influence cultures.

Dark Side of the Tune: Popular Music and Violence.
Authors: MASTERMAN, BRANDON P.
Source: Notes; Dec2009, Vol. 66 Issue 2, p282-284, 3p

Need more? That was just a quick search too. It doesn't take a genius to understand that music can be really influential. Others have made good points that there are other influences such as the media which I am aware of. Get off your high and mighty horse its a discussion, don't assume a devout certainty, you are not a divine being. Social issues are incredibly complex, its not the type of thing that is either a or b.

I'm here for a discussion, tone it down a bit. Others have made pretty good points which I respected, if you feel so strongly about it go vent to your mother.
 
36
2
You do know that what you have bolded just means that rappers have turned the word 'killing' into a good thing... like 'i'm killing it'. I don't buy that rappers created this vernacular language but even so what you've posted hardly points the finger of blame of gangs and such at rap music.

So yeah, another source. Ps I'm not acting like a 'divine being' I have no idea what you're on to come up with your **** but perhaps it's time to stop?
 

Ryan_m_b

Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
5,754
706
Studies on whether or not violent music makes people violent will always be hard retrospectively. Most studies rely on trying to plot correlations between listening to violent music and being violent but do not outline a cause (nor do they show that the correlation they see is actually reversed).

A test would be to get a random selection of people and make them listen to violent music, then see if they act violently. I severely doubt they will because whilst music is influential it is nowhere near the super-potent memetic virus some people advocate it to be. It could be that if I'm having a bad day and I listen to some music all about punching people in the face that I might be more likely to punch someone in the face who makes my day worse but whether or not it does strongly relies on who I am as a person which is influenced by far more than music. Lastly, I think that suggesting that violent music makes people more violent is as tenuous as suggesting that listening to music about love makes someone more loving.
 

Disconnected

Gold Member
111
0
Music Preferences and Their Relationship to Behaviors, Beliefs, and Attitudes toward Aggression
This can go both ways, though. People with aggressive personalities are more likely to associate with aggressive music. I am not saying that music doesn't influence people - it certainly does - but I don't think that violent music is just churning out homicidal maniacs.

This still doesn't approach the main concern I have of the whole situation; how would it be done fairly and effectively? As talked about earlier in this thread, I don't think it can. Nor do I think it should (see the quote about freedom of speech), but I know people have differing opinions on that kind of thing.
 
882
2
Whats with the cursing and attacks? Relax yourself.

Music Preferences and Their Relationship to Behaviors, Beliefs, and Attitudes toward Aggression
http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED507397.pdf
This shows no causative relationship between listening to violent music causing violence. They only discuss the "relationship" between violent music listeners and increased positive views of violence. Correlation not causation with no analysis of which came first.

Tragic Narratives in Popular Culture: Depictions of Homicide in Rap Music.
doi: 10.1111/j.1573-7861.2009.01122.x

Taken from abstract:

"Results show violent death was constructed in glorified ways, incorporated cautionary tales, or used as an analogy for powerful rhyming. The major themes found in these homicide-related rap lyrics were the normalization of killing, respect maintenance, confrontation with the power structure, vengeance, and masculine confrontation. Homicide was almost always male on male. Careful consideration is given to the multiple meanings of homicide, particularly the ways rappers have appropriated the word “killing” and transformed it into a term that indicates creative success."

Whats powerful about music aside from its sheer influential power is its ability to change paradigms and influence cultures.
I couldn't access this paper, so I cannot comment other than on the abstract. The abstract simply seems to be investigating cultural shifts based on rap music. As was already stated, this is not necessarily a bad thing.


Dark Side of the Tune: Popular Music and Violence.
Authors: MASTERMAN, BRANDON P.
Source: Notes; Dec2009, Vol. 66 Issue 2, p282-284, 3p
Did you even read through this book? I read about 20 pages of the "inciting to violence" chapter. Violent music used to incite violence apparently goes back to biblical times - I guess that shouldn't be all that surprising. Half the book was cut out from google books, but it seemed like a very interesting read.

Need more? That was just a quick search too. It doesn't take a genius to understand that music can be really influential. Others have made good points that there are other influences such as the media which I am aware of. Get off your high and mighty horse its a discussion, don't assume a devout certainty, you are not a divine being. Social issues are incredibly complex, its not the type of thing that is either a or b.

I'm here for a discussion, tone it down a bit. Others have made pretty good points which I respected, if you feel so strongly about it go vent to your mother.
I don't think anyone would argue this is a complex issue - but you must remember that a large group on this forum are Americans and freedom of speech is sort of fundamental to the American identity. I actually find it fairly disgusting that you would even consider discussing the idea of governmental censorship of music and how much that could lead to the erosion the fundamental basis of human rights.
 

Ryan_m_b

Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
5,754
706
I don't think anyone would argue this is a complex issue - but you must remember that a large group on this forum are Americans and freedom of speech is sort of fundamental to the American identity. I actually find it fairly disgusting that you would even consider discussing the idea of governmental censorship of music and how much that could lead to the erosion the fundamental basis of human rights.
Point of order: Americans don't have a monopoly on Freedom of Speech ideals.

Other than that I agree with everything you've said.
 
Studies on whether or not violent music makes people violent will always be hard retrospectively. Most studies rely on trying to plot correlations between listening to violent music and being violent but do not outline a cause (nor do they show that the correlation they see is actually reversed).

A test would be to get a random selection of people and make them listen to violent music, then see if they act violently. I severely doubt they will because whilst music is influential it is nowhere near the super-potent memetic virus some people advocate it to be. It could be that if I'm having a bad day and I listen to some music all about punching people in the face that I might be more likely to punch someone in the face who makes my day worse but whether or not it does strongly relies on who I am as a person which is influenced by far more than music. Lastly, I think that suggesting that violent music makes people more violent is as tenuous as suggesting that listening to music about love makes someone more loving.
I don't see the problem with the studies that you talked about. The studies do not need to show a cause but rather that there is an influence. And its quite apparent that they do have an influence. But I agree with what you said for the most part except that I'm probably biased about this.

Furthermore, the problem with the study you proposed is that it assumes I am talking about music causes violence. Rather, what I've been proposing several times (seems that its getting overlooked) is that it promotes a way of life which leads to violence. It changes paradigms of being violent as a masculine thing to do among other things which if you listen to closely you will notice.
 

Related Threads for: Should songs be under government consent?

Replies
2
Views
1K
Replies
69
Views
7K
Replies
42
Views
5K
Replies
129
Views
12K
S
Replies
59
Views
10K

Physics Forums Values

We Value Quality
• Topics based on mainstream science
• Proper English grammar and spelling
We Value Civility
• Positive and compassionate attitudes
• Patience while debating
We Value Productivity
• Disciplined to remain on-topic
• Recognition of own weaknesses
• Solo and co-op problem solving

Hot Threads

Top