Should songs be under government consent?

[Nano-Passion]

There are a lot of songs that have such a bad influence on society. Just look at all the songs at the start of 2000 that constantly promoted living the "gangster" life and violence... Pathetic.

Its enough that people in certain areas are influenced by their environment to join the whole "gangster" life but why promote it with songs talking about violence or even killing?

Look at this song for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgnXl7fz0Bc&feature=player_embedded

Minutes of influence for a girl to take a dirty picture.. Seriously now wtheck? Little girls listen to these things on the radio all the time and add it to their playlists. I have a little sister so songs like these also piss me off.

Or songs such as:


In which promote violence.

I know its a free democracy by the people and for the people... but some people do more hurt then good.

 

[mege]

Who's going to decide what's good and bad?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

There are some highly atrocious songs out there, I can't remember the name of the song but I saw one a while ago that featured a group of "gangsters" standing round a table throwing money at naked girls grinding against them. I hate things like that with a passion, it's so demeaning and sends out the wrong image.

Having said that there should definitely not be regulation, censorship does far more harm than good.

 

[Nano-Passion]

Who's going to decide what's good and bad?

A code of conduct would be made deciding on what should be permissible and what is beyond the line. The question who then becomes irrelevant - a group of people hired by a government/corporation/ or whatever.

If a song is promoting gang and violence it shouldn't be easily accessed to the radio. I live in America and I see it around me.. people grow up influenced by rap and hip hop music. Which is fine, some rap is a form of poetry.. but when it is promoting violence and gang affiliation then it is in disdain.

I mean come on.. do we really need more ignorant stuff in the U.S.?

 

[Pengwuino]

If a song is promoting gang and violence it shouldn't be easily accessed to the radio. I live in America and I see it around me.. people grow up influenced by rap and hip hop music. Which is fine, some rap is a form of poetry.. but when it is promoting violence and gang affiliation then it is in disdain.

I mean come on.. do we really need more ignorant stuff in the U.S.?

It sells. You would be forced to make the federal government censor it. I see no two ways about it.

 

[Nano-Passion]

There are some highly atrocious songs out there, I can't remember the name of the song but I saw one a while ago that featured a group of "gangsters" standing round a table throwing money at naked girls grinding against them. I hate things like that with a passion, it's so demeaning and sends out the wrong image.

Having said that there should definitely not be regulation, censorship does far more harm than good.

You live in the belief that censorship is this ultimate evil. Do you believe that everything is uncensored in the government? There are a lot of corrupt things that goes behind our back and the news doesn't get out. That is a form of censorship.

Censorship for songs would be good under the right circumstance. Talk about drugs, talk about sex, sure its a free country, but talk about violence and you are putting other people in danger.

I was in a school where all the kids were heavily influenced by music and pursued gang life and violence. It was a pain in the ***. There can be much more good in the country if violence is not promoted.

 

[Nano-Passion]

It sells. You would be forced to make the federal government censor it. I see no two ways about it.

I don't fully understand your reasoning of argument. I would be forced to make the federal government censor it?

Cocaine sells too, doesn't mean its good for you. But then again there are a lot of philosophical fuzzy areas of good and bad toward drugs. Violence though should definitely not be promoted, I don't see any good that can come from it.

 

[micromass]

Nano, I basically agree with you. But the thing is, if you're going to outlaw these songs, then they'll become even more popular! What's more fun for a teenager than to listen to banned songs?

 

[Nano-Passion]

Nano, I basically agree with you. But the thing is, if you're going to outlaw these songs, then they'll become even more popular! What's more fun for a teenager than to listen to banned songs?

Things die along generations. It won't be popular for long just as living a farmers life of no technology or wearing 1960's clothes is no longer popular.

If violent songs keep getting recycled (they are all pretty much the same) then the influence will stay through generations as long as it is allowed.

The fact that it is allowed through mass media (the radio, t.v., etc.) shows just how much destructive influence it can have.

We Americans are so intimidated by restricting freedom, we see it as an evil. Anyone that wants to censor music is a communist! Oops you got me.

But people don't see that freedom is restricted such as war on drugs and gangs, and laws against prostitution (in most areas of U.S. except a certain area of Las Vegas to my knowledge).

Who knows how much money is spent against the war on gangs, and how much suffering goes on because of violence. Fighting it at the root (influence) is the viable thing to do.

Cut the leaves and tree grows some more, cut at the foundation and the whole tree comes tumbling down.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

You live in the belief that censorship is this ultimate evil. Do you believe that everything is uncensored in the government? There are a lot of corrupt things that goes behind our back and the news doesn't get out. That is a form of censorship.

No I don't believe that censorship is an "ultimate evil" but looking at cases where it has been practised I believe it to do more harm than good in the majority of cases. Here in the UK we have a long http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_Kingdom" that included banning all "blasphemous" media. I would hate to see a return to such times.

Surely you are agreeing with me by pointing out that corruption being covered up is a bad thing? Allowing censorship would only help corruption stay hidden, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_British_privacy_injunctions_controversy"

Censorship for songs would be good under the right circumstance. Talk about drugs, talk about sex, sure its a free country, but talk about violence and you are putting other people in danger.

There are two problems here, firstly by allowing censorship in the first place you are getting to a situation whereby you have people in a position to decide what should and should not be banned. It may start out as an effort to prevent promoting gang violence but it could easily change into a situation whereby the Censor's Office is full of people who use it to push a political agenda. Secondly any half decent lawyer or politician can spin almost anything to suddenly become the banned topic, to use an example I could easily come up with a decent argument as to why http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Mis%C3%A9rables" was a musical with a strong pro-violence theme. Care to ban that?

I know I sound factious but this is how censorship goes, it can start off with a reasonable attempt at addressing a specific problem and end up a nightmarish ministry full of one political/ethnic group who can abuse it to their hearts content.

I was in a school where all the kids were heavily influenced by music and pursued gang life and violence. It was a pain in the ***. There can be much more good in the country if violence is not promoted.

Violence will not be defeated through establishing a censorship.

 

[micromass]

Voltaire once said “I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write.” And I stand by it.

I don't think banning songs is the right option here. You need to take out the root of the problem: bad education, poverty and unemployment. If these things aren't eliminated, then criminality and gangster attitude can be eliminated.

Children should be raised with respect towards each other, and that's the parents responsibility. The parents should discourage their children from listening to that music: either by prohibiting it or by have a conversation with the child and by asking if they actually understand what those lyrics say.

That children like this atrocious music has a reason. And it is these reason that needs to be dealt with.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

But people don't see that freedom is restricted such as war on drugs and gangs, and laws against prostitution (in most areas of U.S. except a certain area of Las Vegas to my knowledge).

And there are strong arguments for legalising these

Cut the leaves and tree grows some more, cut at the foundation and the whole tree comes tumbling down.

This is naive. Firstly people are not violent because they listen to rap, the issue is hugely multifactorial with music being a symptom rather than a cause. If banning something could breed out what it loosely represents in a few generations we would have established crime free utopias millennia ago.

 

[Pengwuino]

I don't fully understand your reasoning of argument. I would be forced to make the federal government censor it?

Cocaine sells too, doesn't mean its good for you. But then again there are a lot of philosophical fuzzy areas of good and bad toward drugs. Violence though should definitely not be promoted, I don't see any good that can come from it.

Yes, cocaine dictates what I'm trying to get across. You can't expect drug dealers to patrol themselves and decide that their drugs are too dangerous to sell. It's the same with these record companies that specialize in this sort of harmful entertainment. You can't expect them to basically cut off their main source of revenue.

People who produce this kind of junk know what they're doing. It's not like most cases where companies sometimes make a bad product every once in a while and it's in their best interest to stop. For these companies, it's in their best interest to make more trash because for the most part, there is 0 pressure to stop them.

 

[mege]

Ultimately, I think it comes down to parents being involved in their kid's lives and having a moral society to start. While the government shouldn't (cannot?) legislate morality, the people can definitely use social pressure to keep others moral.

Also, there is an issue of - what is the source? Do we have violent music because there are gangs or do we have gangs because we have violent music? You talk about a source, but I don't think Eminem is it.

 

[Pengwuino]

This is naive. Firstly people are not violent because they listen to rap, the issue is hugely multifactorial with music being a symptom rather than a cause. If banning something could breed out what it loosely represents in a few generations we would have established crime free utopias millennia ago.

I think this may be a somewhat naive viewpoint in-of-itself. It may not directly cause violence, but it does send an overwhelmingly powerful message that "This is OK. This is what you're suppose to do".

While no one could argue crime and poverty would be gone if such violent music were to disappear overnight, but we would see huge positive change. If you're poor and live in a rough part of town, sure you may see guys beating up girls and drug dealers next door, but music is an immensely powerful and direct message. To me, because of the power that music has over many people, it would be the overwhelming reinforcement needed for an impressionable youth to go out and live that lifestyle.

And let's not forget, the drug dealer next door may get taken away by the police every so often, but the people who create this violent music are making videos of them living in penthouse suites with gold everywhere. Which do you think makes a bigger impression on youth...

 

[Nano-Passion]

No I don't believe that censorship is an "ultimate evil" but looking at cases where it has been practised I believe it to do more harm than good in the majority of cases. Here in the UK we have a long http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_Kingdom" that included banning all "blasphemous" media. I would hate to see a return to such times.

Surely you are agreeing with me by pointing out that corruption being covered up is a bad thing? Allowing censorship would only help corruption stay hidden, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_British_privacy_injunctions_controversy"
There are two problems here, firstly by allowing censorship in the first place you are getting to a situation whereby you have people in a position to decide what should and should not be banned. It may start out as an effort to prevent promoting gang violence but it could easily change into a situation whereby the Censor's Office is full of people who use it to push a political agenda. Secondly any half decent lawyer or politician can spin almost anything to suddenly become the banned topic, to use an example I could easily come up with a decent argument as to why http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Mis%C3%A9rables" was a musical with a strong pro-violence theme. Care to ban that?

I know I sound factious but this is how censorship goes, it can start off with a reasonable attempt at addressing a specific problem and end up a nightmarish ministry full of one political/ethnic group who can abuse it to their hearts content.Violence will not be defeated through establishing a censorship.

Censorship is a broad term, it can govern any topic. I disagree with censoring corruption. But I do agree with censoring violent music.

What political agenda would be pushed when violent music are prohibited from mass media? A strict code of conduct would be placed to prohibit misuse.

You do make good points and I'm open to your view, but I'm under the impression that it can in theory work out. I am not a law major so I don't know how they spin words around to their liking. Whatever the case is, censorship of violent music is very important.

And there are strong arguments for legalising these

This is naive. Firstly people are not violent because they listen to rap, the issue is hugely multifactorial with music being a symptom rather than a cause. If banning something could breed out what it loosely represents in a few generations we would have established crime free utopias millennia ago.

I know there are strong arguments for legalizing these, don't know about gang and violence though.

I know that A does not cause B. But A greatly influences the action of B. Violent music influences violent. And I don't blame rap, some rap does contain a degree of poetic beauty. I blame violent music under rap as an influence, not a direct and correlated cause.

The difference between influence and cause is that influence works on a probabilistic frame while the word cause is an absolute frame: meaning that it works under 100% certainty.

Yes, cocaine dictates what I'm trying to get across. You can't expect drug dealers to patrol themselves and decide that their drugs are too dangerous to sell. It's the same with these record companies that specialize in this sort of harmful entertainment. You can't expect them to basically cut off their main source of revenue.

People who produce this kind of junk know what they're doing. It's not like most cases where companies sometimes make a bad product every once in a while and it's in their best interest to stop. For these companies, it's in their best interest to make more trash because for the most part, there is 0 pressure to stop them.

Yes, which is also why we can't expect the powerhouse tobacco company to cut off their main source of revenue as they kill X amount of people per year.

And which is why a non zero pressure should be applied! hehe.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to parents being involved in their kid's lives and having a moral society to start. While the government shouldn't (cannot?) legislate morality, the people can definitely use social pressure to keep others moral.

Also, there is an issue of - what is the source? Do we have violent music because there are gangs or do we have gangs because we have violent music? You talk about a source, but I don't think Eminem is it.

I didn't see much violence that Eminem was promoting. On the other hand, songs like are much more geared toward violence. And I must admit, as a younger and more naive child I was influenced by these songs.

I seem to be misunderstood. I am not speaking of music as a source of gangs. However, I am speaking of music as an influence to violence and gangs.

I think this may be a somewhat naive viewpoint in-of-itself. It may not directly cause violence, but it does send an overwhelmingly powerful message that "This is OK. This is what you're suppose to do".

While no one could argue crime and poverty would be gone if such violent music were to disappear overnight, but we would see huge positive change. If you're poor and live in a rough part of town, sure you may see guys beating up girls and drug dealers next door, but music is an immensely powerful and direct message. To me, because of the power that music has over many people, it would be the overwhelming reinforcement needed for an impressionable youth to go out and live that lifestyle.

And let's not forget, the drug dealer next door may get taken away by the police every so often, but the people who create this violent music are making videos of them living in penthouse suites with gold everywhere. Which do you think makes a bigger impression on youth...

Agreed.

 

[micromass]

Maybe something supporting the OP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Télévision_Libre_des_Mille_Collines

Radio Mille Collines was a Hutu radio active before and during the Rwanda genocide. It supported violence and compared the Tutsi's to cockroaches. The radio has been convicted for inciting genocide. And I believe this was a correct decision. We should censor such hateful radio's.

There are songs out there which could be seen as inciting murder, rape and criminality. This of course isn't the same as the Rwanda genocide which killed over a million people, but I can see some parallels.

I'm not expressing my opinion, but I'm just exploring the question a bit. As for my opinion: censorship is a repressive action and a repressive action alone won't solve the problem. You'll need socio-economic changes as well.

 

[Proton Soup]

politicians read books
politicians start wars
let's ban books that were read by politicians that started wars

 

[micromass]

politicians read books
politicians start wars
let's ban books that were read by politicians that started wars

So you're ok with not censoring Mille Collines radio then??

Free speech is important, but perhaps it has its limits...

 

[Nano-Passion]

Maybe something supporting the OP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Télévision_Libre_des_Mille_Collines

Radio Mille Collines was a Hutu radio active before and during the Rwanda genocide. It supported violence and compared the Tutsi's to cockroaches. The radio has been convicted for inciting genocide. And I believe this was a correct decision. We should censor such hateful radio's.

There are songs out there which could be seen as inciting murder, rape and criminality. This of course isn't the same as the Rwanda genocide which killed over a million people, but I can see some parallels.

Good point.

As for my opinion: censorship is a repressive action and a repressive action alone won't solve the problem.

Repressive actions are needed to keep things from getting out of hands. Laws keep things from getting out of hand, they repress the population in a sense but for the benefit of the society, take the speed limit and motor vehicle penalties for example.

In south america the population of mosquitos are repressed from getting out of hand.

Repression is not an evil. Repression of good is evil. Repression of evil is good.

With that said, repressing violent music is not a bad thing.

You'll need socio-economic changes as well

I agree, but as ryan has mentioned it is a multi-factorial issue, as with any sociological problem.

You only start making progress by taking an action on one of the issues.

 

[Proton Soup]

So you're ok with not censoring Mille Collines radio then??

Free speech is important, but perhaps it has its limits...

i'm not for inciting violence. I'm just finding it odd that the problem is somehow music. why not movies? our entertainment industry has a long history of violence in movies, much of it about gangsters, hit men, lone wolf killers, etc. the hit television show Dexter is about a sociopath that tempers his desire to kill by choosing victims that deserve to die. a kind of guiltless vigilante.

you've got to be pretty careful when trying to divine the line between entertainment, fantasy, and political advocacy.

 

[stringy]

Censor the music how? Limit play time on TV, radio, etc. to certain hours? Not allowing music with certain content to be played AT ALL on mass media? What about the internet? What about live music, concerts, etc.? Who's going to decide what is allowable and what's not (somebody has to do it)? How are you going to differentiate between a hip hop song that "promotes" violence and a Johnny Cash song that "promotes" violence? Censor them both? What about heavy metal and punk? How could you justify this type of censorship being placed on the music industry when there is, arguably, just as much violence in video games and movies?

Did you have a real plan or were you just thinking aloud?

 

[zomgwtf]

LOL. I'm sure some members here grew up during the popular rise of Rock music Jazz music, raves, drugs etc. etc. etc.? What about all the other various forms of art throughout the history which have been considered pornographic and obscene and shouldn't be in a 'decent' society. What I don't think should be in any decent society is the idea that you somehow think you have the right to impose what YOU think on others. Especially with the use of the government, that's hilarious. Are you this conservative about other things too?

There's nothing wrong with girls listening to songs about being sexual, and you know what? There's nothing wrong with them having sex or being sexual.

There' nothing wrong with people listening to songs about not taking **** from anyone, and there's nothing wrong with people that DON'T tak **** from anyone.

Get a grip.

 

[zomgwtf]

So you're ok with not censoring Mille Collines radio then??

Free speech is important, but perhaps it has its limits...

I'm interested... what songs specifically incite murder about anyone? This is illegal and has nothing to do with music.

 

[Pengwuino]

LOL. I'm sure some members here grew up during the popular rise of Rock music Jazz music, raves, drugs etc. etc. etc.? What about all the other various forms of art throughout the history which have been considered pornographic and obscene and shouldn't be in a 'decent' society. What I don't think should be in any decent society is the idea that you somehow think you have the right to impose what YOU think on others. Especially with the use of the government, that's hilarious. Are you this conservative about other things too?

There's nothing wrong with girls listening to songs about being sexual, and you know what? There's nothing wrong with them having sex or being sexual.

There' nothing wrong with people listening to songs about not talking **** from anyone, and there's nothing wrong with people that DON'T talk **** from anyone.

Get a grip.

Except when in our history have we had a massive mainstream musical genre SPECIFICALLY talking about murdering people and rapeing women? The things you're talking about are simply the belief in censoring things that are against ones moral values. This can be debated. However, murdering people and rape are not moral decisions. This is not about people being prudes or growing up in uptight, conservative societies.

Sure there's nothing wrong with girls being sexual and there's nothing wrong with people who stand up for themselves, but there IS something wrong with murder. I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who wants to live in a society where murdering someone for the idiotic reasons one might in a rap song, is considered a "moral issue".

You say "get a grip" as if this has no consequences, as if this were really equivalent to girls showing more cleavage or not waiting until marriage to have sex or what have you. Tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people have died and millions of families broken up due to gang violence, domestic violence, and other crimes that are directly impacted by this sort of trash.

 

[khemist]

Just because you are too old for the music/ don't like it doesn't mean it should be banned.

To say that rap music is the cause is ignorant. Granted, it most likely is an influence, but try fixing the broken education system before trying to censor stupid music (I agree, its stupid)...

Then again, its pretty fun to roll down the street with it pounding.

 

[zomgwtf]

I'll retype up a response that's fine.

Except when in our history have we had a massive mainstream musical genre SPECIFICALLY talking about murdering people and rapeing women? The things you're talking about are simply the belief in censoring things that are against ones moral values. This can be debated. However, murdering people and rape are not moral decisions. This is not about people being prudes or growing up in uptight, conservative societies.

First there are lots of older rock music that talk about drugs, murder, rape etc. etc.. Many of it very, VERY popular even to this day. Allowing someone to talk in society about murder and rape IS a moral choice, you can either hide the reality or show it. Police used to come to my school ALL the time and talk about rape and murder, gangs and violence etc.. We should censor that? Anyways...
It's illegal to incite murder, not just talk about it, not to write a book about it, not to make a video game on it, not to write a song about it... and I'm pretty sure it has to be stated with the knowledge that it would probably be followed through on. I'm hard pressed to think of a song that incites murder. I'm even more hard pressed to find out what murder has to do with what was posted in the OP. Perhaps you'd like to clarify? From this end it now looks like you're equating the music found in the OP with murder, gang violence, and rape. Is that what you're saying? Did you even listen to the songs? One is about a girl sending dirty pictures and the other is really about standing up for yourself. BOTH are moral decisions, apparently both of which the OP does not approve of and wishes to have the government enforce censorship over. This is ridiculous and it IS conservative.

Sure there's nothing wrong with girls being sexual and there's nothing wrong with people who stand up for themselves, but there IS something wrong with murder. I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who wants to live in a society where murdering someone for the idiotic reasons one might in a rap song, is considered a "moral issue".

Right there's something wrong with murder, great argument. As I stated already regardless of if there's something wrong about murder there's nothing wrong TALKING about murder. For Tupac to talk about murders or rapes is not illegal by any means and to decide to censor this from public IS a moral decision. Regardless I'm interested, you seem to be quite the expert on rap songs so how about you post one in which they talk about murdering someone for some idiotic reason where it's not a moral issue. For instance what about police brutality which causes a death? Can't talk about that? What about your friend that got shot due to gang violence? Can't talk about that? I find it absolutely hilarious that you can't differentiate between murder as an act and a discussion ON murder. Talking about murders and why they occur could very well be an issue of morals. I suppose there's no morality surrounding the young black male growing up in the 80's who was beaten by police, told he wasn't allowed on this street or that side of that street, and in an armed robbery caused the death of the clerk. Nope, nothing to do with morals in this. (Sarcasm)

You say "get a grip" as if this has no consequences, as if this were really equivalent to girls showing more cleavage or not waiting until marriage to have sex or what have you. Tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people have died and millions of families broken up due to gang violence, domestic violence, and other crimes that are directly impacted by this sort of trash.

Want to cite a source for that? Presumably it won't be from some conservative god fearing website since this has nothing to do with "being prudish or growing up in an uptight conservative society." You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

How about as a fun experiment you go live for one year inside a ghetto. Now you'll have to bear in mind that you're there of your own freewill to see what it's like. I highly doubt you're up to it. But hey, talking about this stuff isn't about morals and we shouldn't do it.

Anyways, back to the OP. My statement before stands and nothings changed. Your suggestion is ridiculous.

 

[zomgwtf]

Here's some songs I could think of and looked up youtube to make sure I wasn't crazy.

Every Breath You Take - The Police
Murder by Numbers - The Police
You're All I Need - Motley Crue
Killers - Iron Maiden
Homicide - 999
A little piece of heaven - Avenged Sevenfold
It's well known that that song Maniac from flashdance is about a serial killer (It's based on the 1980s movie Maniac)
I love the dead - Alice cooper... pretty ****ed up song.
I don't like Mondays -Boomtown Rats
Stagger lee - Lloy Price (Or any other cover of this song... funny that this song was censored but reached number 1)
Yer Blues - The beatles... off their infamous white album. Suicidal song.
Maneater - Hall & Oates version obviously
Running Gun Blues - David Bowie
Little Susie - MJ
Via Chicago - Wilco (Pretty new but still...)

Then there's death metal, which has been around a very long time... Listen to this song:


9 minutes about drowning someone.

Give me a break, Pengwuino. Songs about murder and rape and just crime in general go so far back it's mind boggling. That song by Llyod Price comes from a 1924 song. No none of these songs are inciting murder, no these songs should not be censored. Yes some were censored when they first came out, no they are not censored now (well foul language and violence in videos are on TV and radio but not by the govn't...) I have chosen these songs specifically because I believe you will know most if not all of them. They are quite popular songs (well I think they must be for ME to know about them but my parents grew up with that music so I grew up with that music really) Regardless, I'll await for your apologetics for why this is a different case.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I think this may be a somewhat naive viewpoint in-of-itself. It may not directly cause violence, but it does send an overwhelmingly powerful message that "This is OK. This is what you're suppose to do".

While no one could argue crime and poverty would be gone if such violent music were to disappear overnight, but we would see huge positive change. If you're poor and live in a rough part of town, sure you may see guys beating up girls and drug dealers next door, but music is an immensely powerful and direct message. To me, because of the power that music has over many people, it would be the overwhelming reinforcement needed for an impressionable youth to go out and live that lifestyle.

And let's not forget, the drug dealer next door may get taken away by the police every so often, but the people who create this violent music are making videos of them living in penthouse suites with gold everywhere. Which do you think makes a bigger impression on youth...

I don't see why you think there would be a "huge change". Violence is everywhere in our society, it's not just in the odd rough estate it's prolific in all of our media. I'm not saying that if all violent music disappeared there would not by a change but my biggest criticism is that official censorship is hugely open to abuse and generates black markets. If you ban the music people will send it all over the internet, you'll get worse music and worse attitudes towards society and the government because now they are oppressive.

Again though, abuse of the system is far to easy. It can start off as a nice idea to curb gang violence but it won't stay that way. Can you imagine if the more conservative members of the US government (think Tea Party) got themselves onto this committee? Suddenly you'll find music banned because the artist was apparently in a gang, or because it uses the word gang, or because the artist is a black guy rapping against the government and using words like revolution.

Seriously, we can sit around and talk about what would it be like in a hypothetical world where censorship wouldn't be abused, where defining what should be banned is easy and unspinnable, where banning a product resulted in it's absolute removal from society etc but in reality the practicalities of the process mean that it will never work.

 

[Andy]

A violent society creates violent music, not the other way around.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Every Breath You Take - The Police
Murder by Numbers - The Police
You're All I Need - Motley Crue
Killers - Iron Maiden
Homicide - 999
A little piece of heaven - Avenged Sevenfold
It's well known that that song Maniac from flashdance is about a serial killer (It's based on the 1980s movie Maniac)
I love the dead - Alice cooper... pretty ****ed up song.
I don't like Mondays -Boomtown Rats
Stagger lee - Lloy Price (Or any other cover of this song... funny that this song was censored but reached number 1)
Yer Blues - The beatles... off their infamous white album. Suicidal song.
Maneater - Hall & Oates version obviously
Running Gun Blues - David Bowie
Little Susie - MJ
Via Chicago - Wilco (Pretty new but still...)

You left out Puff the Magic Dragon, well "known" to be about drugs.

 

[256bits]

A violent society creates violent music, not the other way around.

An accurate statement.

 

[Mororvia]

Learning good behavior starts at home.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Rather than censorship, what about a rating system like we have for movies. I don't have a problem limiting the material available to kids, but I do have a serious problem with censoring material for adults. We would be creating a monster far more dangerous than thug rap.

Course no matter what might be done, any action involves government spending, and that's out, so nothing can be done.

 

[Disconnected]

So you're ok with not censoring Mille Collines radio then??

Free speech is important, but perhaps it has its limits...

Who decides the limits, though? Back thread someone said that it should be done by a panel selected by the government, but that really isn't an answer. A small group of people selected by lobbyists getting to decide what people can listen to? No thanks.

Note that Mille Collines was a government assisted radio station, so clearly government censorship wouldn't have worked there, anyways.

Now I think the Geto Boyz are screwed up as hell, just like I think a fair proportion of Slayer's songs are fairly disturbing, but I don't think that it is my decision to say whether or not other people can listen to it.

But the comment about songs glorifying the "gangsta" way of life since the early 2000's... I think you missed something fairly "BIG" that happened in the 80's and 90's.

 

[khemist]

BTW the ghetto really isn't that bad. You stay to yourself and people don't **** with you, unless its 1am.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

BTW the ghetto really isn't that bad. You stay to yourself and people don't **** with you, unless its 1am.

Do you live in a ghetto? What city?

 

[zomgwtf]

Do you live in a ghetto? What city?

I've lived in a rather poor and neglected area my entire life well until recently... The owners of the area have been trying to clean it up and with police help throughout much of the 90s and early 2000s it's not so bad anymore. Still if you call the cops and tell them something is happening at the barracks it'll take them no less than 2 minutes to have police cars swarming the drive way. I mentioned this in another post but it got deleted for no apparent reason. (Probably too much "attitude")

Regardless I've been in many poor areas, housing areas, 'project' type areas... they aren't all that bad. I would assume it's worse in America due to racial segregation being all the rave there making bad situations worse but either way it's just a tough life and you see things the average person wouldn't see regularly see on the average day. Like drug deals, people being jumped, shootings you end up with friends that die or kill at very young ages... friends in prison for many reasons. (recently these kids I knew got into a pretty big fight at a bar they ended up dragging the guy out into the street broke both of his legs and slit his throat in the middle of the street and just left him there... they were still in high school... but these events are quite rare up here not that it was shocking to people that it happened though)

Generally speaking if you live IN the ghetto people FROM the ghetto won't really be bothering you unless you cause problems for them. You'll face more problems coming from the middle and upper class people that you deal with. (Which a large amount of rap songs are actually about) I don't think any break ins for the purpose of robbery has occurred where I live in my entire life. The surrounding areas, not so lucky... Growing up there was a strong sense of community within where I live.

 

[khemist]

Do you live in a ghetto? What city?

I live in Oakland. Pretty much on the outskirts of the ghetto. I went to a public high school which had probably 50-70% of the students come from the flats (maybe even more?).

 

[zoobyshoe]

Here in the US the government has totally banned cigarette ads on TV. The reasoning is that these ads persuade people to smoke. (Smoking, interestingly enough, is legal.)

I think the Government and Society, could, by using the same tactics it used against smoking, crack down on the production, and dissemination of, music with a violent message.

 

[bp_psy]

Here in the US the government has totally banned cigarette ads on TV. The reasoning is that these ads persuade people to smoke. (Smoking, interestingly enough, is legal.)

I think the Government and Society, could, by using the same tactics it used against smoking, crack down on the production, and dissemination of, music with a violent message.

In the case of cigarettes there has been conclusive scientific evidence that there is actual harm.I doubt that this is true for "music with violent message", whatever that means.

 

[Willowz]

Learning good behavior starts at home.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

In the case of cigarettes there has been conclusive scientific evidence that there is actual harm.I doubt that this is true for "music with violent message", whatever that means.

Then the cigarettes should be made illegal, not free speech.

 

[Disconnected]

BTW the ghetto really isn't that bad. You stay to yourself and people don't **** with you, unless its 1am.

This is just a side story, and has nothing to do with this discussion in any way. Some friends of mine who work for NOLS, and live in tents (and on one occasion a very elaborite tree house) when not working, were once doing some training course to try to become qualified to work maintinance on very deep water pipelines. Both of them dropped out about 1/3 the way through the course as they didn't like how little time hte coursework+money work left them for adventures. Anyways, the classes were in LA and the shared a little house with a couple other guys (not on their course) in "south central" (or so he said, he was usually pretty good for his word, though). Anyways, one night they were all hanging out in the kitchen which was at the back of the house, and were getting a little drunk when they hear a rapid series of gunshots outside, and one of the guys pitches forward and grabs his shoulder. There had been a shooting outside and a round had punched through 3 walls and hit my buddy's housemate in the shoulder, which it bounced off of, leaving him with a nice big welt and a small metal souvinier that he kept with him as his lucky charm from then on.


I'm not sure how accurate this story was, I heard it from a guy who was apparently in the room, but whatever. I think it's neat.

 

[Newai]

[PLAIN]http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/8419/pa001.jpg

If I attach this to the beginning of my posts, can I go over the top?

I should become a contributor and make this my avatar.

 

[khemist]

This is just a side story, and has nothing to do with this discussion in any way. Some friends of mine who work for NOLS, and live in tents (and on one occasion a very elaborite tree house) when not working, were once doing some training course to try to become qualified to work maintinance on very deep water pipelines. Both of them dropped out about 1/3 the way through the course as they didn't like how little time hte coursework+money work left them for adventures. Anyways, the classes were in LA and the shared a little house with a couple other guys (not on their course) in "south central" (or so he said, he was usually pretty good for his word, though). Anyways, one night they were all hanging out in the kitchen which was at the back of the house, and were getting a little drunk when they hear a rapid series of gunshots outside, and one of the guys pitches forward and grabs his shoulder. There had been a shooting outside and a round had punched through 3 walls and hit my buddy's housemate in the shoulder, which it bounced off of, leaving him with a nice big welt and a small metal souvinier that he kept with him as his lucky charm from then on.


I'm not sure how accurate this story was, I heard it from a guy who was apparently in the room, but whatever. I think it's neat.

In urban environments those things will happen... A few years ago a kid was at piano practice and was hit by a bullet that went through the wall. Just a couple weeks ago my friends dad was approached by a kid (probably 17-20) trying to get his bike. My friends dad basically gave the kid the finger, and the kid promptly ran up and shot him in the stomach.

Dont get me wrong, people are really messed up, but to blame the chaos on music is, as many people in the thread have stated, quite absurd. Music is a reflection of society, not the other way around.

What about movies about Al Capone and other gangsters (again, already mentioned in this thread)? They certainly glorified the use of guns and illegal actions... Oh, but they were wearing suits, so I guess its ok

 

[Nano-Passion]

i'm not for inciting violence. I'm just finding it odd that the problem is somehow music. why not movies? our entertainment industry has a long history of violence in movies, much of it about gangsters, hit men, lone wolf killers, etc. the hit television show Dexter is about a sociopath that tempers his desire to kill by choosing victims that deserve to die. a kind of guiltless vigilante.

you've got to be pretty careful when trying to divine the line between entertainment, fantasy, and political advocacy.

Music has a much more powerful affect in the fact that you can carry it anywhere and you can replay it anytime you want. You don't replay movies around in the bus listening to the words carefully. People memorize all the words of these songs and sing them down the block or keep it to themselves quietly.

I know violence is influence by other things. This thread is specifically geared toward music.

Censor the music how? Limit play time on TV, radio, etc. to certain hours? Not allowing music with certain content to be played AT ALL on mass media? What about the internet? What about live music, concerts, etc.? Who's going to decide what is allowable and what's not (somebody has to do it)? How are you going to differentiate between a hip hop song that "promotes" violence and a Johnny Cash song that "promotes" violence? Censor them both? What about heavy metal and punk? How could you justify this type of censorship being placed on the music industry when there is, arguably, just as much violence in video games and movies?

Did you have a real plan or were you just thinking aloud?

You don't see people come out of their house shooting people after playing call of duty. Music has a much more profound affect, I don't know if you live by any ghetto areas but people are moved by these songs. It reinforces the "gangster" and violent things. I've been around in a bad school were your simply scared to walk alone. People ARE moved by these songs. You don't see it, you provide good points but you don't know what extent each influence can play.

Yes, I know music can still be on the internet and the such. But think more long term.. things die over time. Not many people here listens to songs from the 1930s anymore (I don't know if any).

LOL. I'm sure some members here grew up during the popular rise of Rock music Jazz music, raves, drugs etc. etc. etc.? What about all the other various forms of art throughout the history which have been considered pornographic and obscene and shouldn't be in a 'decent' society. What I don't think should be in any decent society is the idea that you somehow think you have the right to impose what YOU think on others. Especially with the use of the government, that's hilarious. Are you this conservative about other things too?

There's nothing wrong with girls listening to songs about being sexual, and you know what? There's nothing wrong with them having sex or being sexual.

There' nothing wrong with people listening to songs about not taking **** from anyone, and there's nothing wrong with people that DON'T tak **** from anyone.

Get a grip.

Comparing the moral issue of pornography in the late 20th century with violence and gangs is nonsense.

Funny, you say I don't have a right to impose what I think of others. So you think in some other parallel universe violence should be condoned?

There isn't anything wrong with girls listening to sexual songs, but I said it ticks me off because I have a little sister who others can take advantage of. But this thread is geared toward violence.

And to your last point, "there is nothing wrong with people ... not taking **** from anyone": this thread isn't about people getting bullied... Its about gangs and childish violence.

Just because you are too old for the music/ don't like it doesn't mean it should be banned.

To say that rap music is the cause is ignorant. Granted, it most likely is an influence, but try fixing the broken education system before trying to censor stupid music (I agree, its stupid)...

Then again, its pretty fun to roll down the street with it pounding.

I don't know why people keep assuming I said rap music is the cause. So I decided to reread my original post. I made it clear that it was an influence. And I didn't blame rap music, I blame music that promotes the "gangster" life and violence.

 

[Nano-Passion]

In urban environments those things will happen... A few years ago a kid was at piano practice and was hit by a bullet that went through the wall. Just a couple weeks ago my friends dad was approached by a kid (probably 17-20) trying to get his bike. My friends dad basically gave the kid the finger, and the kid promptly ran up and shot him in the stomach.

Dont get me wrong, people are really messed up, but to blame the chaos on music is, as many people in the thread have stated, quite absurd. Music is a reflection of society, not the other way around.

What about movies about Al Capone and other gangsters (again, already mentioned in this thread)? They certainly glorified the use of guns and illegal actions... Oh, but they were wearing suits, so I guess its ok

I know music is a reflection of society, but that reflection comes back around to influence other people also.

I don't see why you think there would be a "huge change". Violence is everywhere in our society, it's not just in the odd rough estate it's prolific in all of our media. I'm not saying that if all violent music disappeared there would not by a change but my biggest criticism is that official censorship is hugely open to abuse and generates black markets. If you ban the music people will send it all over the internet, you'll get worse music and worse attitudes towards society and the government because now they are oppressive.

Again though, abuse of the system is far to easy. It can start off as a nice idea to curb gang violence but it won't stay that way. Can you imagine if the more conservative members of the US government (think Tea Party) got themselves onto this committee? Suddenly you'll find music banned because the artist was apparently in a gang, or because it uses the word gang, or because the artist is a black guy rapping against the government and using words like revolution.

Seriously, we can sit around and talk about what would it be like in a hypothetical world where censorship wouldn't be abused, where defining what should be banned is easy and unspinnable, where banning a product resulted in it's absolute removal from society etc but in reality the practicalities of the process mean that it will never work.

You make a pretty good point.

 

[Nano-Passion]

Here's some songs I could think of and looked up youtube to make sure I wasn't crazy.

Every Breath You Take - The Police
Murder by Numbers - The Police
You're All I Need - Motley Crue
Killers - Iron Maiden
Homicide - 999
A little piece of heaven - Avenged Sevenfold
It's well known that that song Maniac from flashdance is about a serial killer (It's based on the 1980s movie Maniac)
I love the dead - Alice cooper... pretty ****ed up song.
I don't like Mondays -Boomtown Rats
Stagger lee - Lloy Price (Or any other cover of this song... funny that this song was censored but reached number 1)
Yer Blues - The beatles... off their infamous white album. Suicidal song.
Maneater - Hall & Oates version obviously
Running Gun Blues - David Bowie
Little Susie - MJ
Via Chicago - Wilco (Pretty new but still...)

Then there's death metal, which has been around a very long time... Listen to this song:


9 minutes about drowning someone.

Give me a break, Pengwuino. Songs about murder and rape and just crime in general go so far back it's mind boggling. That song by Llyod Price comes from a 1924 song. No none of these songs are inciting murder, no these songs should not be censored. Yes some were censored when they first came out, no they are not censored now (well foul language and violence in videos are on TV and radio but not by the govn't...) I have chosen these songs specifically because I believe you will know most if not all of them. They are quite popular songs (well I think they must be for ME to know about them but my parents grew up with that music so I grew up with that music really) Regardless, I'll await for your apologetics for why this is a different case.

Its funny how songs promoting the gangster life seem to do more harm then these songs listed above. I think its because they promote a way of life and gangs.

 

[zomgwtf]

Its funny how songs promoting the gangster life seem to do more harm then these songs listed above. I think its because they promote a way of life and gangs.

I think it's cause you're equating listening to 'gansta music' equates to becoming a 'gangsta' yourself. Go outside and live in the real world man. You have no ****ing idea what you're talking about.

Also you're making factual claims in your posts I want citations for these in your next post or I'm reporting you. It might be General discussion but I don't think the rules are lenient enough to let you just say whatever the **** you want with no backing.

PS. Another ******** point you try to make is that those songs would hardly cause as 'much damage', however imaginary that damage is... Biker gangs are FAR more dangerous around Canada than any other gangs. They hardly listen to gangster rap LOL!