Lingusitics Should the US Declare English as Its Official Language?

[honestrosewater]

I did use !

Yes, but did you really mean it?!

 

[Smurf]

I've had that opinion many times, then I get a chance to talk to a teenager, and I'm awed by what they know.

Try not to be too impressed by my charm. I may be intelligent, but I'm not perfect.

 

[Clausius2]

I think I am arriving too late here.

To say the truth I wish spanish were the official language in US...because I wouldn't have to do the effort of learning english... .

More seriously, I don't know which is the exact amount of people who don't speak usually english in US, but I do think the official language of US should be english, at least for historical causes.

And listen to this: here in Spain we have an official language: the spanish or also so-called "Castellano" by those who are not symphathetic with the idea of an united nation. Spanish arose in the Castilla Kingdom, and for that is used to call it castellano. But now there are some separatist people, specially in Catalonia, Galicia, and Pais Basque that are trying to make local dialects as official national languages. For example, the language spoken in the Pais Basque is very very different from spanish (it's like german!).

So I will laugh a lot when someone says in US someone claims for spanish being an official language while here people (who are supporters of current government by the way) are trying to kick out spanish language.

 

[Informal Logic]

The funniest statistic I ever read is that there are more English speakers in China than there are in the USA.

It's been part of the national curriculum for over a decade and a half.

This is the issue. English, which is the international language (science, commerce, etc.) is spoken more widely over seas than it is within the US. The question is, why are these people in the US not learning/speaking English, and is it a good thing they are not learning/speaking English. I do not think it is a good thing. In the meantime, why should those who do speak English learn Spanish? That does not make sense.

 

[honestrosewater]

The question is, why are these people in the US not learning/speaking English, and is it a good thing they are not learning/speaking English. I do not think it is a good thing.

I've heard the people arguing that this official language business is really an attack on the Hispanic or Latino (difference?) community say that many Hispanics want to learn English but have trouble getting into classes; There is no resistance in the Hispanic community to learning English, the classes are just full and resources generally not available.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I've heard the people arguing that this official language business is really an attack on the Hispanic or Latino (difference?) community say that many Hispanics want to learn English but have trouble getting into classes; There is no resistance in the Hispanic community to learning English, the classes are just full and resources generally not available.

It's mainly a fringe group I think but around here and in some other areas there are those with a strong latino pride. They argue that since there is no offcial language then they should not have to learn english. They put the onus on the government and non-spanish speakers to learn spanish and provide education for those that don't speak english in their own language without pressuring them to learn english.
The reason why people believe it is targeted at latinos? The average person from most every other country that comes here makes it a point to learn the language and they have no problem with it. The more vocal of latino rights organizations though challenge, on the basis of cultural pride, the idea that latinos in america should learn english. There are people that even consider this to be part of Mexico or believe that it should be. Now I'm sure that these aren't the average latino citizens but they are the people who are most strongly vocal on their behalf.

 

[The Smoking Man]

The average person from most every other country that comes here makes it a point to learn the language and they have no problem with it. The more vocal of latino rights organizations though challenge, on the basis of cultural pride, the idea that latinos in america should learn english. There are people that even consider this to be part of Mexico or believe that it should be. Now I'm sure that these aren't the average latino citizens but they are the people who are most strongly vocal on their behalf.

We're painting with a fairly wide brush on this board.

Does anyone have statistics on just how many unilingual latinos there are in the USA and how much of it is because they are illegals and denied the right to schooling?

I always loved 'Born In East LA' with Cheech Marin.

(I am screwed if they ever make Chinese proficiency a condition of living in China by the way.)

 

[honestrosewater]

Does anyone have statistics on just how many unilingual latinos there are in the USA and how much of it is because they are illegals and denied the right to schooling?

Someone interested may be able to find info here:
http://www.lep.gov/demographic.html
http://www.census.gov/mp/www/spectab/specialtab.html
One report you may want: "Langauge Spoken at Home for the Citizen Population 18 Years and Over Who Speak English Less Than “Very Well.”" (scroll or find).
Total - 8079960
Speak Spanish or Spanish Creole - 4521485
Speak other Indo European language - 1702185
Speak Asian or Pacific Island language - 1582520
Speak other language - 273775
(From 2000 Census)
Actually, it looks like there's lots of more detailed info on the first site.

 

[Townsend]

illegals and denied the right to schooling?

Since when is schooling a right, especially for an illegal alien?

I should also note that I am almost 100 percent positive that no child living in the US would be denied the opportunity to go to school...the problem is that if they are illegal they would be deported and so they don't go to school. It has nothing to do with anyone trying suppress anyone else. And it's not like most of the prosperous countries of the world don't have immigration laws too.

 

[honestrosewater]

Since when is schooling a right, especially for an illegal alien?

Illegal aliens are schooled. No one here watches Lou Dobbs?! ()

In 1982 the Supreme Court ruled
that states and school districts
cannot deny education to illegal
alien children residing here.
- http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04733.pdf

 

[Townsend]

Illegal aliens are schooled.

I edited my post to make it clear that I was not saying they are not being schooled. My point is really just to say that school is not a right though. And that does not mean that I think it shouldn't be available to everyone who wants it, so please don't anyone go off saying I said that.

 

[Townsend]

Illegal aliens are schooled. No one here watches Lou Dobbs?! ()

Your lastest edit confirms my belief that they would not be denied an opportunity to goto school.

 

[honestrosewater]

I edited my post to make it clear that I was not saying they are not being schooled. My point is really just to say that school is not a right though. And that does not mean that I think it shouldn't be available to everyone who wants it, so please don't anyone go off saying I said that.

Don't worry, I was just delivering the news.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

We're painting with a fairly wide brush on this board.

Does anyone have statistics on just how many unilingual latinos there are in the USA and how much of it is because they are illegals and denied the right to schooling?

I always loved 'Born In East LA' with Cheech Marin.

(I am screwed if they ever make Chinese proficiency a condition of living in China by the way.)

Have you ever lived in Southern California? I get to hear what these organizations around here talk about all the time. There was recently a big uproar over a stamp that had a latino chartoon character on it. This was apparently degrading and apparently BIG news lol. We were even treated to quotes from Vincente Fox himself who happens to actually like the stamp.

Illegal immigrants aren't denied the right to schooling. The problem with the schooling is that our schools are terrible and unable to do a decent job of even teaching english speaking students. There is trouble getting bilingual teachers so even though they can go to school if they don't know english they are going to get even less adequate education than the english speaking students do. There are places where they are come to the point of making it manditory that teachers be bilingual.
It has nothing to do with them being illegal immigrants. Hell, haven't you heard? California wants to give illegal immigrants CA state drivers liscenses. Around here they are pretty much the equivilant of having a legal piece of identification as a citizen. They got pissed off when some one suggested that the liscenses for illegal immigrants should be different than those for legal citizens.

---edit---
You can see by my grammar just how wonderful our school system is lol.

 

[SOS2008]

As stated earlier I've lived in the Southwest all my life. Recently (within 2005) I had two Hispanic clients demand bilingual services for the customers they would bring to us. I'm close enough to these individuals to have candid conversation, and said something to the effect that it would be in the best interest of their customers if in the long run they learned to speak English--you know liberal 'wanting the best for all' kind of philosophy. I was told (by the one client in a rather nasty way) that Hispanics would soon be the majority so we better get with the program and learn Spanish. What a wake up call--I began to realize this is a hostile take over. You won't get any statistics on this, it's the kind of subversive thing you find out for yourself--you know, 'learn on the street' kind of thing.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Have you ever lived in Southern California? I get to hear what these organizations around here talk about all the time. There was recently a big uproar over a stamp that had a latino chartoon character on it. This was apparently degrading and apparently BIG news lol. We were even treated to quotes from Vincente Fox himself who happens to actually like the stamp.

Illegal immigrants aren't denied the right to schooling. The problem with the schooling is that our schools are terrible and unable to do a decent job of even teaching english speaking students. There is trouble getting bilingual teachers so even though they can go to school if they don't know english they are going to get even less adequate education than the english speaking students do. There are places where they are come to the point of making it manditory that teachers be bilingual.
It has nothing to do with them being illegal immigrants. Hell, haven't you heard? California wants to give illegal immigrants CA state drivers liscenses. Around here they are pretty much the equivilant of having a legal piece of identification as a citizen. They got pissed off when some one suggested that the liscenses for illegal immigrants should be different than those for legal citizens.

---edit---
You can see by my grammar just how wonderful our school system is lol.

I have never lived there ... but had the opportunity to before moving out of the country.

I was offered a position in the community where Clint Eastwood is/was Mayor.

That would have been too much, I think.

Dirty Harry as the mayor and the Terminator as governor... Who, sometime back inherited it from Bonzo goes to Washington!?

The world is surreal enough.

Ironically, I was just changing wallets this morning and just found my Social Security Card... I have a collection of things like this now.

People often wonder with my two citizenships that allow me to work anywhere in North America and any where in Europe just why the heck I am in China.

Life's too short to bet on being able to travel when you retire.

I kind of liked the Latino Commedian who said after the Taco Bell Dog ... No they aren't proving Latinos are stupid, they are trying to say Chihuahuas are smart. Smarter than Lassie anyway ...

Later, Later, Eh?

 

[honestrosewater]

What in this bill addresses illegal immigration? I don't see it anywhere.

How does this bill help those who want to learn English? And why would helping those who want to learn English require making it the official language?

Do you guys want to force people to learn English? If some group is planning a hostile takeover, I doubt they will want to learn English voluntarily. I don't think that forcing people to learn English jives with our other laws - how would you feel about being forced to learn another language? And how would that work - start deporting people who can't speak the right language?

 

[SOS2008]

What in this bill addresses illegal immigration? I don't see it anywhere.

How does this bill help those who want to learn English? And why would helping those who want to learn English require making it the official language?

Do you guys want to force people to learn English? If some group is planning a hostile takeover, I doubt they will want to learn English voluntarily. I don't think that forcing people to learn English jives with our other laws - how would you feel about being forced to learn another language? And how would that work - start deporting people who can't speak the right language?

As stated in my first post, I question what this particular bill would accomplish. However, I support having a national language and expectation that immigrants learn to speak it as a part of citizenship. The topic of illegal immigration is raised in relation to such bills because of the astronomical number of illegals entering the country, which has been causing anti-English attitudes and divisiveness.

 

[Skyhunter]

There was a movement in California to make english the official language of California.

Someone asked me if it bothered me that my taxes were being spent on multi-lingual correspondence from the state.

I pointed out that spanish was spoken in California before english. My opinion is that it was nothing more than a wedge issue to keep people diverted from the real issues.

 

[loseyourname]

The funniest statistic I ever read is that there are more English speakers in China than there are in the USA.

There are more Irish people in the US than there are in Ireland.

 

[loseyourname]

In the meantime, why should those who do speak English learn Spanish? That does not make sense.

You don't think it's a good idea to learn such a prevalent language? You can get by almost anywhere in the world by knowing just those two languages - Spanish and English, because someone is going to speak one of them. Although I'm starting to think that learning some Chinese would be a good idea as well. Maybe when I've become somewhat proficient in Irish Gaelic, it'll be time to tackle Mandarin.

 

[SOS2008]

Of course there is nothing bad about being able to speak more than one language. LYN, the point is that English must be learned first and foremost in order to maintain a common language, and learning other languages should be optional and by individual choice. Here is a news report tonight regarding debate over making Spanish mandatory for educators:

LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, surrendering America. Dallas, Texas, votes on an incredible proposal that would force school officials there to learn Spanish and speak it on the job. All of this, instead of forcing parents and students to assimilate into U.S. society and learn English.
----------------------------------------------------
ROMANS: Educators and teachers unions are watching this one closely. If Dallas passes this, it sets a precedence that could change the face of education in all ethnic neighborhoods.

And with many urban neighborhoods already facing shortages of qualified administrators, a recommendation to speak Spanish or Cantonese or Vietnamese, whatever the language, could have a chilling effect, these educators say, on recruiting and retaining top talent in these schools.

DOBBS: Well, it could certainly do that, Christine, as you report. But also, it is absolutely upside down. English is the language of this nation. The suggestion that students not learn English and not be capable of translating for their parents, or their parents assimilating into this culture, is utter madness. And for a public school district, the trustee, Joe May, is he out of his mind?

And corresponding CNN poll results as of this time:

Do you think the interests of society are best served by requiring public schools to:

Teach students English - 97% (4,542 votes)
Teach principals Spanish - 3% (123 votes)

After prop 200 passed in Arizona, I'm shocked that Texas is even remotely considering such a requirement in their state. And for those who don't think there is hostility, once again as reported tonight:

In Yuma, Arizona, a group of violent illegal aliens attacked a Border Patrol helicopter, and they forced the pilot of that helicopter to make an emergency landing. The U.S. Border Patrol says those illegal aliens threw rocks at the helicopter similar to this one that patrols the border with Mexico. One rock, we're told, the size of a baseball, was thrown into the rotor blades, damaged one of them. The pilot was not injured, nor was the U.S. Border Patrol observer with him.

]http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/25/ldt.01.html

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

What in this bill addresses illegal immigration? I don't see it anywhere.

How does this bill help those who want to learn English? And why would helping those who want to learn English require making it the official language?

Do you guys want to force people to learn English? If some group is planning a hostile takeover, I doubt they will want to learn English voluntarily. I don't think that forcing people to learn English jives with our other laws - how would you feel about being forced to learn another language? And how would that work - start deporting people who can't speak the right language?

Making english our official language wouldn't mean that people will be deported because they can't speak english. It wouldn't mean that people couldn't get jobs if they weren't proficient. It wouldn't mean people wouldn't be able to get information in other languages from the government either. It just means that english is our official language. The only substancial thing I can see coming of this is that learning english will be required in public schools and people will not be able to get around that by saying there is no legal precident for it.

I pointed out that spanish was spoken in California before english. My opinion is that it was nothing more than a wedge issue to keep people diverted from the real issues.

Requiring that kids in school and adults in college learn english will not create divisivness except where people wish to resist aclimation to an english speaking society. I really can't think of much that will divide people more than not sharing a common language.

I began to realize this is a hostile take over. You won't get any statistics on this, it's the kind of subversive thing you find out for yourself--you know, 'learn on the street' kind of thing.

I think this might be just a wee bit extreme. Not entirely unfounded though.

This deals predominantly with California, as you can probably tell, but the subject is all about the issues of illegal immigration and the roles of both the US and Mexican government in it. I'm sure it could easily apply to other border states as well even though it focuses on CA. Haven't read it yet, but if I remember to I would probably pick it up myself.

 

[Clausius2]

I am afraid the mental image you are acquiring about spanish. Please, keep in mind that an spanish from Spain is not the same as an hispanic, and that an spanish (Spain) inmmigrant in US surely won't dedicate his time to do the same things that the majority of hispanics inmmigrants do when they pass the borders. Here it is the same with almost all morocco inmmigrants who enters by the south border of Gibraltar, they come for nothing except causing problems.

I am going to SoCA, and I will try to do my best in saying I am from Spain==Europe, and I am not going to US to do nothing harmful to US society. I do undertand the antipathy that hispanic inmmigration might be caused in american native people, because I have said here it is the same with morocco's. And I do understand the antipathy that spanish language might cause for this, but keep in mind also that the spanish language is not the same than "hispanic" language. The latter is a poor degeneration of the first one.

The main purpose of all my comments is do not confuse Spanish with Hispanic, please.

 

[honestrosewater]

Making english our official language wouldn't mean that people will be deported because they can't speak english. It wouldn't mean that people couldn't get jobs if they weren't proficient. It wouldn't mean people wouldn't be able to get information in other languages from the government either. It just means that english is our official language.

Right, deporting people was just regarding how you would forcing people to learn a language. I think the title of official language is merely symbolic. Nothing else that people want to get done requires English to have the title of official language.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I am afraid the mental image you are acquiring about spanish. Please, keep in mind that an spanish from Spain is not the same as an hispanic, and that an spanish (Spain) inmmigrant in US surely won't dedicate his time to do the same things that the majority of hispanics inmmigrants do when they pass the borders. Here it is the same with almost all morocco inmmigrants who enters by the south border of Gibraltar, they come for nothing except causing problems.

I am going to SoCA, and I will try to do my best in saying I am from Spain==Europe, and I am not going to US to do nothing harmful to US society. I do undertand the antipathy that hispanic inmmigration might be caused in american native people, because I have said here it is the same with morocco's. And I do understand the antipathy that spanish language might cause for this, but keep in mind also that the spanish language is not the same than "hispanic" language. The latter is a poor degeneration of the first one.

The main purpose of all my comments is do not confuse Spanish with Hispanic, please.

I don't think I have ever met anyone actually from Spain. And don't worry if people think you are from Mexico, unless that in it self bothers you, you shouldn't have any problems. People here, for the most part, don't have any problems with people from other countries. What they have a problem with is their tax money going to an ever growing populace of people who do not pay taxes. It's not the people themselves, it's the government that is allowing this to continue that bothers them. Even then those people are probably a minority. This is one of the most liberal states in the country. You'll most likely be quite welcome here. Please don't let this issue think you'll be made a pariah. And if anyone does treat you badly I apologize in advance.

 

[Clausius2]

I don't think I have ever met anyone actually from Spain. And don't worry if people think you are from Mexico, unless that in it self bothers you, you shouldn't have any problems. People here, for the most part, don't have any problems with people from other countries. What they have a problem with is their tax money going to an ever growing populace of people who do not pay taxes. It's not the people themselves, it's the government that is allowing this to continue that bothers them. Even then those people are probably a minority. This is one of the most liberal states in the country. You'll most likely be quite welcome here. Please don't let this issue think you'll be made a pariah. And if anyone does treat you badly I apologize in advance.

I quite understand you, because here we feel the same!. You have said the government has the blame, and I do think so. Here the government also makes silly advantages to illegal inmmigrants such as complete legalization without scarcely any requirement and the instantaneous convalidation of the license driver. If you may have been read the european news last times, the whole european community is astonished seeing how Spain has applied a new law of inmmigrants legalization without consulting EU.

To say the truth, we sometimes blame to the inmmigrants about what is happening. But we have to accept they have some part of the blame too. Me, as a future visa inmmigrant in US, I am aware I'm going to a foreign country, I must respect to native population and native costumes, and I have to be grateful for being hosted by a foreign country. This feelling is not shared by, for instance, the majority of morocco inmmigrants who come to spanish shores. They haven't got any respect for us, they don't come here to work. Anyway, it is my personal impression, my words are not universal, and surely there are exceptions about my statement.

I am glad of what you said about CA. I hope so and I hope that american native people know how to differentiate between an hispanic who go to US to be a delinquent, and an spanish mechanical engineer who go to US to do research.