Lingusitics Should the US Declare English as Its Official Language?

[loseyourname]

I wonder if improper grammar will become a 'federal offense'.

I think for one, the first use of "like you know" in any sentence, either spoken or written, should be a misdemeanor. Multiple use should constitute a felony - but what punishment? Detention?

I would settle for people actually being able to write or speak with proper English.

A little bit of dialectical prejudice there, Astro? Everything said today by any speaker of English would be almost entirely incorrect in Middle or Old English, especially given the complete loss of inflection. Langauge evolves and the rules change. You may not like the sound of some valley girl saying "like, you know," but there is no objective rule stating that this exclamation is a less valid way of expressing a conjunctive relationship between direct objects than "such as."

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Spanish and English are far and away the two most common world languages

1 Chinese (Mandarin) 1,000,000,000 +
2 English 508,000,000
3 Hindustani (Hindi and Urdu) 497,000,000
4 Spanish 392,000,000
5 Russian 277,000,000
6 Arabic 246,000,000
7 Bengali 211,000,000
8 Portuguese 191,000,000
9 Malay-Indonesian 159,000,000
10 French 129,000,000

Source: University of Washington

www.aneki.com/languages.html

 

[loseyourname]

Yes, I was going to mention Chinese as well, but didn't because of all the different dialects. The same with Hindustani, which isn't really only one language.* I find it impossible to believe that only 500 million people speak English worldwide, too. The population of the US, UK, and Canada alone is a little over 400 million. That may be an accurate reflection of how many speak English as their primary language, but there is no way it reflects the number capable of holding a conversation in the language.

*I admit ignorance of these languages, by the way. For all I know, the differences between dialects are no more than the differences between American English and English English, or Mexican Spanish and Spanish Spanish.

 

[loseyourname]

From the same page, here is the list of all the countries that are English-speaking:

• Antigua and Barbuda
• Australia
• Bahamas,The
• Bangladesh
• Barbados
• Belize
• Bermuda
• Botswana
• Brunei
• Cameroon
• Canada
• Cayman Islands
• Dominica
• Fiji
• Gambia,The
• Ghana
• Gibraltar
• India
• Ireland
• Jamaica
• Kenya
• Lesotho
• Liberia
• Malawi
• Malta
• Mauritius
• New Zealand
• Nigeria
• Pakistan
• Papua New Guinea
• Philippines
• Seychelles
• Sierra Leone
• South Africa
• Sri Lanka
• Swaziland
• Tanzania
• Trinidad and Tobago
• Uganda
• United Kingdom
• United States
• Zambia
• Zimbabwe

Their populations add up to much more than 500 million. India and the US alone account for about three times that much.

 

[selfAdjoint]

1 Chinese (Mandarin) 1,000,000,000 +
2 English 508,000,000
3 Hindustani (Hindi and Urdu) 497,000,000
4 Spanish 392,000,000
5 Russian 277,000,000
6 Arabic 246,000,000
7 Bengali 211,000,000
8 Portuguese 191,000,000
9 Malay-Indonesian 159,000,000
10 French 129,000,000

Source: University of Washington

www.aneki.com/languages.html

The source didn't say if that was native speakers only. Half a billion English speakers just looks like the total population of the English-speaking countries (USA by itself is almost a third of a billion), but there are many people in other countries who speak some English.

 

[The Smoking Man]

The source didn't say if that was native speakers only. Half a billion English speakers just looks like the total population of the English-speaking countries (USA by itself is almost a third of a billion), but there are many people in other countries who speak some English.

The funniest statistic I ever read is that there are more English speakers in China than there are in the USA.

It's been part of the national curriculum for over a decade and a half.

 

[Smurf]

The funniest statistic I ever read is that there are more English speakers in China than there are in the USA.

It's been part of the national curriculum for over a decade and a half.

If that's true it makes jimmysnyder's data even less seemingly plausible. We need more sources.

 

[Astronuc]

A little bit of dialectical prejudice there, Astro? Everything said today by any speaker of English would be almost entirely incorrect in Middle or Old English, especially given the complete loss of inflection. Langauge evolves and the rules change. You may not like the sound of some valley girl saying "like, you know," but there is no objective rule stating that this exclamation is a less valid way of expressing a conjunctive relationship between direct objects than "such as."

I did use !

It just irks me to hear people converse with filler phrases.

It also irks me when government entities harp on education matters when the legislative and executive officials would most likely fail high school proficiency/competency tests, which politicians would like to impose on teachers. I would imagine the President Bush would fail any competency test in English, History, Geography, and Mathematics, and so would many legislators at the federal, state and local level.

I heard the state senator from my area brag one time that he was totally helpless when it came to using a PC - he relied on his assistants.

And I was informed today that several schools in Texas, which used to be top schools, have declined precipitously in quality.

I have seen little or no progress (and perhaps even some regression) in general education since I left high school 30+ years ago.

 

[selfAdjoint]

I've had that opinion many times, then I get a chance to talk to a teenager, and I'm awed by what they know.

 

[Astronuc]

I've had that opinion many times, then I get a chance to talk to a teenager, and I'm awed by what they know.

Once in a while I have had that experience. I hired the valedictorian of the local high school - his resume would put most college baccalaureate graduates to shame. He is brilliant at math (he went on to Harvard) and an excellent programmer. I was truly impressed with his initiative and quality of his work.

On the other hand, a group of engineers and I attended a career day at the same high school. All of us were thoroughly unimpressed and even discouraged at the end of the day. Of several hundred students, only a handful displayed a sufficient level of education. The vast majority had trouble making coherent or intelligent statements, and this is supposed to be one of the better schools in the state (?).

I felt like the majority of students were barely qualified for Walmart or McDonalds. It was that bad!

 

[honestrosewater]

I did use !

Yes, but did you really mean it?!

 

[Smurf]

I've had that opinion many times, then I get a chance to talk to a teenager, and I'm awed by what they know.

Try not to be too impressed by my charm. I may be intelligent, but I'm not perfect.

 

[Clausius2]

I think I am arriving too late here.

To say the truth I wish spanish were the official language in US...because I wouldn't have to do the effort of learning english... .

More seriously, I don't know which is the exact amount of people who don't speak usually english in US, but I do think the official language of US should be english, at least for historical causes.

And listen to this: here in Spain we have an official language: the spanish or also so-called "Castellano" by those who are not symphathetic with the idea of an united nation. Spanish arose in the Castilla Kingdom, and for that is used to call it castellano. But now there are some separatist people, specially in Catalonia, Galicia, and Pais Basque that are trying to make local dialects as official national languages. For example, the language spoken in the Pais Basque is very very different from spanish (it's like german!).

So I will laugh a lot when someone says in US someone claims for spanish being an official language while here people (who are supporters of current government by the way) are trying to kick out spanish language.

 

[Informal Logic]

The funniest statistic I ever read is that there are more English speakers in China than there are in the USA.

It's been part of the national curriculum for over a decade and a half.

This is the issue. English, which is the international language (science, commerce, etc.) is spoken more widely over seas than it is within the US. The question is, why are these people in the US not learning/speaking English, and is it a good thing they are not learning/speaking English. I do not think it is a good thing. In the meantime, why should those who do speak English learn Spanish? That does not make sense.

 

[honestrosewater]

The question is, why are these people in the US not learning/speaking English, and is it a good thing they are not learning/speaking English. I do not think it is a good thing.

I've heard the people arguing that this official language business is really an attack on the Hispanic or Latino (difference?) community say that many Hispanics want to learn English but have trouble getting into classes; There is no resistance in the Hispanic community to learning English, the classes are just full and resources generally not available.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I've heard the people arguing that this official language business is really an attack on the Hispanic or Latino (difference?) community say that many Hispanics want to learn English but have trouble getting into classes; There is no resistance in the Hispanic community to learning English, the classes are just full and resources generally not available.

It's mainly a fringe group I think but around here and in some other areas there are those with a strong latino pride. They argue that since there is no offcial language then they should not have to learn english. They put the onus on the government and non-spanish speakers to learn spanish and provide education for those that don't speak english in their own language without pressuring them to learn english.
The reason why people believe it is targeted at latinos? The average person from most every other country that comes here makes it a point to learn the language and they have no problem with it. The more vocal of latino rights organizations though challenge, on the basis of cultural pride, the idea that latinos in america should learn english. There are people that even consider this to be part of Mexico or believe that it should be. Now I'm sure that these aren't the average latino citizens but they are the people who are most strongly vocal on their behalf.

 

[The Smoking Man]

The average person from most every other country that comes here makes it a point to learn the language and they have no problem with it. The more vocal of latino rights organizations though challenge, on the basis of cultural pride, the idea that latinos in america should learn english. There are people that even consider this to be part of Mexico or believe that it should be. Now I'm sure that these aren't the average latino citizens but they are the people who are most strongly vocal on their behalf.

We're painting with a fairly wide brush on this board.

Does anyone have statistics on just how many unilingual latinos there are in the USA and how much of it is because they are illegals and denied the right to schooling?

I always loved 'Born In East LA' with Cheech Marin.

(I am screwed if they ever make Chinese proficiency a condition of living in China by the way.)

 

[honestrosewater]

Does anyone have statistics on just how many unilingual latinos there are in the USA and how much of it is because they are illegals and denied the right to schooling?

Someone interested may be able to find info here:
http://www.lep.gov/demographic.html
http://www.census.gov/mp/www/spectab/specialtab.html
One report you may want: "Langauge Spoken at Home for the Citizen Population 18 Years and Over Who Speak English Less Than “Very Well.”" (scroll or find).
Total - 8079960
Speak Spanish or Spanish Creole - 4521485
Speak other Indo European language - 1702185
Speak Asian or Pacific Island language - 1582520
Speak other language - 273775
(From 2000 Census)
Actually, it looks like there's lots of more detailed info on the first site.

 

[Townsend]

illegals and denied the right to schooling?

Since when is schooling a right, especially for an illegal alien?

I should also note that I am almost 100 percent positive that no child living in the US would be denied the opportunity to go to school...the problem is that if they are illegal they would be deported and so they don't go to school. It has nothing to do with anyone trying suppress anyone else. And it's not like most of the prosperous countries of the world don't have immigration laws too.

 

[honestrosewater]

Since when is schooling a right, especially for an illegal alien?

Illegal aliens are schooled. No one here watches Lou Dobbs?! ()

In 1982 the Supreme Court ruled
that states and school districts
cannot deny education to illegal
alien children residing here.
- http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04733.pdf

 

[Townsend]

Illegal aliens are schooled.

I edited my post to make it clear that I was not saying they are not being schooled. My point is really just to say that school is not a right though. And that does not mean that I think it shouldn't be available to everyone who wants it, so please don't anyone go off saying I said that.

 

[Townsend]

Illegal aliens are schooled. No one here watches Lou Dobbs?! ()

Your lastest edit confirms my belief that they would not be denied an opportunity to goto school.

 

[honestrosewater]

I edited my post to make it clear that I was not saying they are not being schooled. My point is really just to say that school is not a right though. And that does not mean that I think it shouldn't be available to everyone who wants it, so please don't anyone go off saying I said that.

Don't worry, I was just delivering the news.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

We're painting with a fairly wide brush on this board.

Does anyone have statistics on just how many unilingual latinos there are in the USA and how much of it is because they are illegals and denied the right to schooling?

I always loved 'Born In East LA' with Cheech Marin.

(I am screwed if they ever make Chinese proficiency a condition of living in China by the way.)

Have you ever lived in Southern California? I get to hear what these organizations around here talk about all the time. There was recently a big uproar over a stamp that had a latino chartoon character on it. This was apparently degrading and apparently BIG news lol. We were even treated to quotes from Vincente Fox himself who happens to actually like the stamp.

Illegal immigrants aren't denied the right to schooling. The problem with the schooling is that our schools are terrible and unable to do a decent job of even teaching english speaking students. There is trouble getting bilingual teachers so even though they can go to school if they don't know english they are going to get even less adequate education than the english speaking students do. There are places where they are come to the point of making it manditory that teachers be bilingual.
It has nothing to do with them being illegal immigrants. Hell, haven't you heard? California wants to give illegal immigrants CA state drivers liscenses. Around here they are pretty much the equivilant of having a legal piece of identification as a citizen. They got pissed off when some one suggested that the liscenses for illegal immigrants should be different than those for legal citizens.

---edit---
You can see by my grammar just how wonderful our school system is lol.

 

[SOS2008]

As stated earlier I've lived in the Southwest all my life. Recently (within 2005) I had two Hispanic clients demand bilingual services for the customers they would bring to us. I'm close enough to these individuals to have candid conversation, and said something to the effect that it would be in the best interest of their customers if in the long run they learned to speak English--you know liberal 'wanting the best for all' kind of philosophy. I was told (by the one client in a rather nasty way) that Hispanics would soon be the majority so we better get with the program and learn Spanish. What a wake up call--I began to realize this is a hostile take over. You won't get any statistics on this, it's the kind of subversive thing you find out for yourself--you know, 'learn on the street' kind of thing.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Have you ever lived in Southern California? I get to hear what these organizations around here talk about all the time. There was recently a big uproar over a stamp that had a latino chartoon character on it. This was apparently degrading and apparently BIG news lol. We were even treated to quotes from Vincente Fox himself who happens to actually like the stamp.

Illegal immigrants aren't denied the right to schooling. The problem with the schooling is that our schools are terrible and unable to do a decent job of even teaching english speaking students. There is trouble getting bilingual teachers so even though they can go to school if they don't know english they are going to get even less adequate education than the english speaking students do. There are places where they are come to the point of making it manditory that teachers be bilingual.
It has nothing to do with them being illegal immigrants. Hell, haven't you heard? California wants to give illegal immigrants CA state drivers liscenses. Around here they are pretty much the equivilant of having a legal piece of identification as a citizen. They got pissed off when some one suggested that the liscenses for illegal immigrants should be different than those for legal citizens.

---edit---
You can see by my grammar just how wonderful our school system is lol.

I have never lived there ... but had the opportunity to before moving out of the country.

I was offered a position in the community where Clint Eastwood is/was Mayor.

That would have been too much, I think.

Dirty Harry as the mayor and the Terminator as governor... Who, sometime back inherited it from Bonzo goes to Washington!?

The world is surreal enough.

Ironically, I was just changing wallets this morning and just found my Social Security Card... I have a collection of things like this now.

People often wonder with my two citizenships that allow me to work anywhere in North America and any where in Europe just why the heck I am in China.

Life's too short to bet on being able to travel when you retire.

I kind of liked the Latino Commedian who said after the Taco Bell Dog ... No they aren't proving Latinos are stupid, they are trying to say Chihuahuas are smart. Smarter than Lassie anyway ...

Later, Later, Eh?

 

[honestrosewater]

What in this bill addresses illegal immigration? I don't see it anywhere.

How does this bill help those who want to learn English? And why would helping those who want to learn English require making it the official language?

Do you guys want to force people to learn English? If some group is planning a hostile takeover, I doubt they will want to learn English voluntarily. I don't think that forcing people to learn English jives with our other laws - how would you feel about being forced to learn another language? And how would that work - start deporting people who can't speak the right language?

 

[SOS2008]

What in this bill addresses illegal immigration? I don't see it anywhere.

How does this bill help those who want to learn English? And why would helping those who want to learn English require making it the official language?

Do you guys want to force people to learn English? If some group is planning a hostile takeover, I doubt they will want to learn English voluntarily. I don't think that forcing people to learn English jives with our other laws - how would you feel about being forced to learn another language? And how would that work - start deporting people who can't speak the right language?

As stated in my first post, I question what this particular bill would accomplish. However, I support having a national language and expectation that immigrants learn to speak it as a part of citizenship. The topic of illegal immigration is raised in relation to such bills because of the astronomical number of illegals entering the country, which has been causing anti-English attitudes and divisiveness.

 

[Skyhunter]

There was a movement in California to make english the official language of California.

Someone asked me if it bothered me that my taxes were being spent on multi-lingual correspondence from the state.

I pointed out that spanish was spoken in California before english. My opinion is that it was nothing more than a wedge issue to keep people diverted from the real issues.

 

[loseyourname]

The funniest statistic I ever read is that there are more English speakers in China than there are in the USA.

There are more Irish people in the US than there are in Ireland.