I Simultaneity: Train and Lightning Thought Experiment

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Einstein's thought experiment on simultaneity illustrates how two observers can perceive the timing of events differently based on their relative motion. A man on a train platform sees two lightning strikes at the same time because they are equidistant from him, while a woman on a moving train sees the strike at the front first due to her forward motion. This discrepancy arises because simultaneity is relative; what is simultaneous in one frame (the man's) is not in another (the woman's). The discussion emphasizes that both observers must agree on certain physical realities, such as the speed of light being constant, but their observations of the lightning strikes differ due to their respective frames of reference. Ultimately, the thought experiment demonstrates that simultaneity is not an absolute concept but rather depends on the observer's motion.
  • #61
Ibix said:
Rotating objects generally look rather odd in relativity

Yes, but this is not about how the seesaw appears, it's about its shape. Observations differ in different frames. The shape of the seesaw is one such observation.
 
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  • #62
Ziang said:
The lady questions why the seesaw is not broken?

Because in its rest frame it's not bent (enough for it to break).
 
  • #63
Ziang said:
That is what I said: "the woman on the train claims that the seesaw is not straight up but it is curved up and down on its both ends A & B continuously. The lady questions why the seesaw is not broken?"
That's what a freely rotating beam looks like when viewed from a moving frame. It can't be straight - as you've already observed the relativity of simultaneity shows that immediately. Any other maths you do will support this. For example you can transform the centripetal force to show that it's not centripetal in the moving frame, and its direction depends on the radius, which is consistent with a curved beam. Or you can draw a 2+1 dimensional Minkowski diagram and consider the intersection of a sloped simultaneity plane with the helical worldtube of the spinning beam.

The question is, why do you think it ought to be straight? The short answer is that you are trying to use common sense in an extremely uncommon situation. That doesn't work well.
 
  • #64
Janus said:
Just because the See-saw is curved in her frame does not mean that it is under stress in her frame.

The laws of physics are invariant in all inertial frames.
If the seesaw gets stress when it gets curved in one inertial frames then it would get stress when it gets curved in all inertial frames.
 
  • #65
Ziang said:
The laws of physics are invariant in all inertial frames.
If the seesaw gets stress when it gets curved in one inertial frames then it would get stress when it gets curved in all inertial frames.

The laws of physics are invariant in all inertial frames. However, "being curved", which I interpret as a statement about the purely spatial geometry of the object, is a frame dependent statement, due to the relativity of simultaneity. If parts of an object have a non-zero proper acceleration - such as a rotating stick, the see-saw, or an accelerating elevator - the spatial projection of the object may be flat in some frames of reference and "curved" in other frames of reference.

Note that if an object is not accelrating, if all parts of the object have a zero proper acceleration, then the property of "being flat" does turn out to be independent of the chocie of frame, as the Lorentz transformation is linear, and linear functions map straight lines to straight lines.

However, the worldline of an accelerating point is not a straight line, so this argument does not apply.
 
  • #66
Ziang said:
The laws of physics are invariant in all inertial frames.
If the seesaw gets stress when it gets curved in one inertial frames then it would get stress when it gets curved in all inertial frames.

Okay. And if the stress is not enough to break it in one frame, then it doesn't break in all frames. It will be bent by different amounts in different frames, though.
 
  • #67
The way I would put the stress situation is that the stress-energy tensor is a rank 2 tensor, and transforms as such. I do have some questions on the relationship between the physicists usage of the stress energy tensor, which I'm familiar with, and engineering usage, which I'm not familiar with and which may be slightly different.

I'm tempted to say that if the stress-energy tensor is zero in one frame, it's zero in all frames. While this is a correct statement, it's misleading, because the energy part of the stress-energy tensor isn't zero if one has matter present. So in the cases under consideration, one would actually need to carry out the appropriate transformations to figure out how it transforms.

The ability to handle rank 2 tensors and their transformations comes well after one learns introductory special relativity, however. If one doesn't learn the basics of SR, one will never get this far.
 
  • #68
I did work out the shape of a rotating bar in a moving reference frame via the Lorentz transform. This is simpler than the see-saw case to analyze, but one can gain some insight of the see-saw case from the rotating bar case.

It's convenient to write the coordinate of any point on the bar as a function of r, which we set to zero at the origin of the bar (the origin being the point on the bar with zero proper acceleration). We will call the inertial frame of reference in which the origin of the bar is at rest "the rest frame of the bar", even though only the origin of the bar is at rest in this frame. r is a parameter that picks out a specific point on the bar. We also need a time coordinate, which we will take as the proper time ##\tau## of the point we just specified by specifying r. We will let the angular frequency of the rotation be ##\omega## in the bar's rest frame. Then in the bar's rest frame, we write:

$$x = r \cos \frac{\omega \tau}{\sqrt{1-r^2\omega^2}} \quad y = r \sin \frac{\omega \tau}{\sqrt{1-r^2\omega^2}} \quad t = \frac{\tau}{\sqrt{1-r^2\omega^2}}$$

Applying the Lorentz transform, we can transform these coordinates to a moving frame. Let the velocity be determined by the dimensionless parameter ##\beta##, so that v = \beta c. And let ##\gamma = 1/\sqrt{1-\beta^2}##. Then we can find the position of a point on the bar in a moving frame with coordinates x1, y1, t1 via the Lorentz transform.

$$x1 = \gamma \left(x + \beta\,c\,t \right) \quad y1=y \quad t1 = \gamma \left( t +\beta x/c \right) $$

We can substitute the expressions for ##x(r,\tau)##, ##y(r,\tau)##, and ##t(r,\tau)## from the first set of equations into the second to find ##x1(r, \tau), y1(r,\tau), t1(r,\tau)##. It's also convenient to set c=1 at this point, unless one really wants to keep tract of it (I did not).

We now wish to find and plot x1 and y1 as a function of t1, rather than as a function of ##\tau##. To do this, we need to solve the equation

$$
t1 = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\beta^2}} \left( {\frac {\tau}{\sqrt {1-{r}^{2}{\omega}^{2}}}}+\frac{\beta}{c}\,r\cos
\left( {\frac {\omega\,\tau}{\sqrt {1-{r}^{2}{\omega}^{2}}}} \right)
\right)$$

for ##\tau## as a function of r and t1. This is not something that has a closed form solution. We will call this ##\tau = f^{-1}(r, t1)##

Then we can write the coordinates x1 and y1 of the bar at time t1 as a function of r, where I have now omitted the factors of c:

$$ x1 =
\left( r\cos \left( {\frac {\omega\,f^{-1}}{\sqrt {1-{r}^{2}{\omega}^{2}}}} \right) +{\frac {\beta\,f^{-1}}{\sqrt {1-{r}^{2}{\omega}^{2}}}} \right) {
\frac {1}{\sqrt {1-{\beta}^{2}}}}$$

$$ y1=r\sin \left( {\frac {\omega\,f^{-1}}{\sqrt {1-{r}^{2}{\omega}^{2}}}} \right) $$

This would be quite messy to carry out by hand - I used a computer algebra package to do the algebraic manipulations and to do some graphs for ##\beta = .9## and ##\omega = .5## with r varying from 0 to 1. While I don't have a convenient way of posting the results, I can say that the bar is generally not straight (there's an exception when it's vertical), that one can see the effects of time dilation (the bar rotates more slowly), and that the bar is length contracted as well as bent when it's not vertical.

As I mentioned in a previous post, this is more or less to be expected. While the Lorentz transformation is a linear transformation and must map straight lines into straight lines, the worldlines of points on the bar (a fixed value of r as ##\tau## varies) are not straight lines for r>0. So we don't expect the bar to be straight, and we don't expect the bar to have a constant length, and the calculations demonstrate this.

I like this approach because a) I'm used to it, and b) the coordinates r and ##\tau## have physical significance, being the proper distance of a point on the bar from the origin in the former case, and being the proper time of a point on the bar in the later case. Both the proper distance and the proper times are independent of any coordinate choices, so it's a convenient representation of the spinning bar.
 
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  • #69
Nice analysis @pervect

Suppose the bar is made of some delicate material such as glass so that a very small bend will cause it to break. What the OP is asking about, I believe, is why it doesn't break when it bends in the moving frame. This is just one of those things that's part of special relativity, like time dilation and length contraction. It's like asking how, when a moving rod is Lorentz-contracted, it can withstand the compression without breaking. Relativity contradicts common sense in many ways, and this is just one of those ways. Understanding them expands common sense.
 
  • #70
This might be another way to look at it.

In the rest frame of its centre of mass it's straight, and rotated at each subsequent time. So a rotating rod can be viewed as a helical worldsheet. This can be illustrated with a (2+1)d Minkowski diagram - I've drawn one below. One spatial plane of the rest frame is marked as a blue plane (time is perpendicular to this), and naturally the intersection of the green helical worldsheet and the plane is a straight line. So the rod is straight in this frame.
restframe.png


But what happens in a moving frame? In a moving frame, the spatial plane is tilted compared to the one drawn above. That looks like this:
movingframe.png

Now you can clearly see that the intersection of the helix and the plane is a curve. That's why the rod is curved in this frame (although as @pervect notes, there's a special case when the rod is "across" the slope where it'll be straight). You can also see immediately that I've changed nothing about the rod by changing the frame. So it can't be broken; it's just the intuitive notion that "if it isn't straight it ought to be broken" that doesn't work properly.
 

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  • #71
pervect said:
in the bar's rest frame

Is this the rest frame of the bar's center of mass (but non-rotating), or a (rotating) frame in which the bar as a whole is at rest? It looks like the former, since you have coordinates varying with time. But I think clarity would be helpful.
 
  • #72
PeterDonis said:
Is this the rest frame of the bar's center of mass (but non-rotating), or a (rotating) frame in which the bar as a whole is at rest? It looks like the former, since you have coordinates varying with time. But I think clarity would be helpful.

WIth my setup, it's the frame in which the bar's origin is at rest. The origin is defined as the point on the bar with zero proper acceleration. Points not at the origin will have a non-zero proper acceleration. I'd rather avoid the center of mass, I seem to recall there are potential issues with it's frame dependence in SR, though I'm hazy on the details.

I've slightly ammended my original post to clarify this point.
 
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  • #73
Ibix said:
This can be illustrated with a (2+1)d Minkowski diagram

Great visuals, Ibix!
The 2D straight and 2D curved rod are only different 2D measurements/observations of one and the same 3D helix.:thumbup:
 
  • #74
Peter Martin said:
The problem is in the description of the situation, which states that the lightning strikes are "simultaneous" without stating that the simultaneity is from the man's (bystander's) point of view. Let's re-describe the problem from the woman's (passenger's) point of view.

A woman sits at the middle of a train. Out the window she sees the countryside - which includes a man standing watching the train - rushing by in the direction of the rear of the train. Suddenly she sees lightning strike the front and rear cars of the train simultaneously. The question is: What does the man see?

Since he is rushing toward the rear of the train, he sees the lightning strike the rear car first because, as the light travels toward him, he is traveling toward the source of the light. By the same token, he is moving away from the strike on the front car so it takes longer for the light to reach him.

Since we typically spend more time on the landscape than on trains, we naturally take the man's point of view when describing this apparent paradox. So as soon as you read the (biased) description you are already on the "wrong track".

The answer can be explained without any reference to Special Relativity, Einstein, or inertial reference frames. Ask: How could the two lightning strikes occur so that the woman on the train sees them as simultaneous? We can assume a conventional view of reality: that the landscape is "at rest" and the train is "in motion".

Since the flash from the rear strike must travel a longer distance to reach the woman, due to her "forward motion", it must occur before the front strike. Well, that is exactly what the man sees when the woman sees the strikes as simultaneous. So this explanation makes perfect sense even with the conventional view that the landscape is "at rest" and the train is "moving".

No need for Einstein!
 
  • #75
Peter Martin said:
The answer can be explained without any reference to Special Relativity, Einstein, or inertial reference frames. Ask: How could the two lightning strikes occur so that the woman on the train sees them as simultaneous? We can assume a conventional view of reality: that the landscape is "at rest" and the train is "in motion"
A "view of reality" in the sense you are using it here is a reference frame - in this case, the rest frame of the landscape.

Peter Martin said:
Since the flash from the rear strike must travel a longer distance to reach the woman, due to her "forward motion", it must occur before the front strike. Well, that is exactly what the man sees when the woman sees the strikes as simultaneous. So this explanation makes perfect sense even with the conventional view that the landscape is "at rest" and the train is "moving".
That explanation works fine in the landscape frame. But what is the explanation in the train frame? If you formulate a coherent answer to this, you will find that you have developed special relativity.
 
  • #76
Peter Martin said:
No need for Einstein!
Except that we needed Einstein to point this out to us in the first place... :smile:

And seriously, kidding aside... Einstein introduced the relativity of simultaneity using pretty much this explanation - no relativity, just the assumption of constant light speed. Was he the first to make this argument?
 
  • #77
Peter Martin said:
The answer can be explained without any reference to Special Relativity,

Without special relativity the two people observe the light beams moving at different speeds, and they both agree that the strikes were simultaneous. As soon as you claim the speed of light is the same for both observers you get the relativity of simultaneity, and you have something that's part of special relativity. Without special relativity you don't have an invariant speed and you therefore don't have relative simultaneity.
 
  • #78
Peter Martin said:
The answer can be explained without any reference to Special Relativity, Einstein, or inertial reference frames. Ask: How could the two lightning strikes occur so that the woman on the train sees them as simultaneous? We can assume a conventional view of reality: that the landscape is "at rest" and the train is "in motion".

Where special relativity comes into play is assuming that the speed of light is constant for all observers. Without this assumption, one could come to different conclusions.

If one assumes the speed of light is constant for all observers, though, the relativity of simultaneity is a necessary consequence of this assumption.
 
  • #79
Mister T said:
As soon as you claim the speed of light is the same for both observers you get the relativity of simultaneity,

The speed of light is constant <=> Time and space are relative.
is what you mean, right?
 
  • #80
Ziang said:
The speed of light is constant <=> Time and space are relative.
is what you mean, right?

No. Simultaneity is relatve because the speed of light is invariant. That is part of special relativity. Remove special relativity and you remove relative simultaneity.

My point is that you need special relativity to get relative simultaneity.
 
  • #81
"The speed of light in vacuum is constant"
Could we say this statement is a law?
 
  • #82
Ziang said:
"The speed of light in vacuum is constant"
Could we say this statement is a law?
We could, but saying that doesn't tell us much of anything that we don't already know.

It's an assumption ("postulate" in the common English-language translation of Einstein's 1905 paper) that goes into deriving the theory of relativity. We make this assumption because it is supported by mountains of experimental evidence that tell us that the universe really does work that way.
 
  • #83
pervect said:
If one assumes the speed of light is constant for all observers, though, the relativity of simultaneity is a necessary consequence of this assumption.
So if the speed of light in a vacuum is constant then there is no chance (0.00%) for absolute time and space exist?
 
  • #84
Ziang said:
So if the speed of light in a vacuum is constant
Invariant, rather than constant.
Ziang said:
there is no chance (0.00%) for absolute time and space exist?
Probability isn't the right tool for this. Special relativity is a consequence of the principle of relativity and a finite invariant speed, the speed at which light travels. Given those assumptions, plus homogeneity and isotropy, something with identical maths to special relativity is inescapable.

Whether that means there is no absolute space and time is a matter of interpretation. Lorentz Ether Theory is simply special relativity with the assumption that there is one genuine, but undetectable, rest frame; treating something that moves in this frame as stationary is (in some sense) wrong. But there are no consequences to being wrong, and it's not immediately obvious why everything would be set up to hide the chosen frame so effectively. So since this theory contains an extra assumption (the chosen frame) and offers no advantages, it's largely ignored.
 
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  • #85
Is it ok to say that the viewpoint of absolute space and time has been proved wrong with the Einstein's train?
 
  • #86
Ziang said:
Is it ok to say that the viewpoint of absolute space and time has been proved wrong with the Einstein's train?
It would be easier to answer that question if you could provide a precise definition of what you mean by "absolute time and space".
 
  • #87
Nugatory said:
It would be easier to answer that question if you could provide a precise definition of what you mean by "absolute time and space".
When I say absolute time, I mean the flow rate of time is constant to everyone in anywhere. There is no time dilation.
When I say absolute space, I mean the space which is not affected by a mass or a moving frame. There is no length contraction, no curvature.

Is it ok to say that the absolute space and time has been disproved by Einstein's conceptual experiment the train and lightning?
Is it ok to say that the viewpoint of relative space and time is true, no way for any space and time else?
 
  • #88
Ziang said:
When I say absolute time, I mean the flow rate of time is constant to everyone in anywhere. There is no time dilation.
When I say absolute space, I mean the space which is not affected by a mass or a moving frame. There is no length contraction, no curvature.

Is it ok to say that the absolute space and time has been disproved by Einstein's conceptual experiment the train and lightning?
Is it ok to say that the viewpoint of relative space and time is true, no way for any space and time else?
Surely which is correct, Minkwoskian or Gallilean space-time geometry, must be decided by observation and experiment.
So far relativity has never conflicted with these.
 
  • #89
Ziang said:
Is it ok to say that the viewpoint of absolute space and time has been proved wrong with the Einstein's train?

Ziang said:
When I say absolute time, I mean the flow rate of time is constant to everyone in anywhere.There is no time dilation.

Depends on what you mean by "prove". Usually these things are decided by a preponderance of the evidence. In this case there have been so many cases in which time dilation has been demonstrated that it's essentially a proven fact. Einstein's thought experiment with the train didn't convince the vast majority of physicists at the time. But the demonstrations I speak of are not thought experiments. They are actual experiments.And observations. And as it turns out, they are explained by Einstein. His thought experiments were just a tool used by him to aid in his explanations. He got it right.

When I say absolute space, I mean the space which is not affected by a mass or a moving frame. There is no length contraction, no curvature.

Similar comments apply here. We now know that Einstein got it right. Look, for example, at the stuff written by Clifford M. Will. Just do a google search. He wrote a lot about this topic. His discussion of the radar ranging of Venus, for example, I found particularly illuminating.

Einstein didn't disprove absolute time and space. He showed us how to disprove it.
 
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  • #90
Mister T said:
Einstein's thought experiment with the train didn't convince the vast majority of physicists at the time.
May you tell me why not? Did they have any logic counter-arguments or thought experiments that were against Einstein's train?
 
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