Small big problem with integrals

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    Integrals
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the challenges and misconceptions related to the change of variables in integral calculus. Participants explore specific examples of integrals and the implications of non-bijective substitutions, addressing both theoretical and practical aspects of integration.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion regarding the validity of a change of variable in integrals, particularly questioning the assumption that an integral over a zero-width interval yields zero.
  • Another participant points out that substitution fails if it is not bijective, specifically noting that the use of ##\cos x = \sqrt{1-\sin^2 x}## is problematic due to sign changes in the cosine function within the integration range.
  • There is a suggestion to split the integral into two parts to properly apply substitution, which could yield a non-zero result.
  • A later reply questions the validity of obtaining an integral result of the form ##\int_{a}^{a} f(x)\, dx## and whether such a situation has been encountered by others.
  • One participant asserts that a proper substitution will not yield a zero-width integral unless the original integral has the same form or involves integration along a specific path, such as in the complex plane.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of certain substitutions and the implications of non-bijective mappings in integrals. No consensus is reached on the correct approach to the examples provided.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the properties of the functions involved in the substitutions and the potential for sign changes affecting the results of integrals.

MAGNIBORO
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hi, This is a bit embarrassing But I do not understand what the problem is with this change of variable.
suppose
$$\int_{0}^{\pi }sin(u)\,du = 2$$
now make the change ## sin(u)=v ## , ## du = \frac{dv}{\sqrt{1-v^2}} ##
$$\int_{0}^{0}\frac{v}{\sqrt{1-v^2}} \, dv = 0$$
other example,
$$\int_{0}^{2\pi } n\, \, 2cos(n)sin(n) \, dn = -\pi$$
make the change ## sin^{2}(n) = x ## , ## 2 cos(n)sin(n) dn = dx ##
$$\int_{0}^{0 } \arcsin(\sqrt{x})\, \, dx = 0 $$

Now, the mistake is to suppose this? :
$$\int_{a}^{a } f(x)\, \, dx = 0$$
This is like an indeterminate form?
The correct way would be Apply limits like this?
$$\lim_{\varepsilon \rightarrow 0}\, \int_{a }^{a+\varepsilon } f(x) \, dx = 0$$

thanks
 
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Substitution doesn't work that way if the substitution is not bijective.

In the first example, you use ##\cos x = \sqrt{1-\sin^2 x}##, but that only works as long as the cosine is positive. In the middle of your integration range it changes sign.
You can split the integral in two parts (0 to pi/2 and pi/2 to pi) and substitute in each one individually, then you get a proper non-zero integral.
 
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mfb said:
Substitution doesn't work that way if the substitution is not bijective.

In the first example, you use ##\cos x = \sqrt{1-\sin^2 x}##, but that only works as long as the cosine is positive. In the middle of your integration range it changes sign.
You can split the integral in two parts (0 to pi/2 and pi/2 to pi) and substitute in each one individually, then you get a proper non-zero integral.
thanks for replying , and the second example I guess the error is in ##\arcsin(\sqrt(x))##.
But can happen the case when solving an integral Give me the result
$$ \int_{a}^{a } f(x)\, \, dx $$
Has it ever happened to you?
 
That will never be the result of a proper substitution unless the initial integral has the same form, or unless you integrate along a path (e. g. in the complex plane).
 
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