So how many people in your school were pretty stupid?

[Gale]

Honestly, if everyone would just read Beyond Good and Evil, and Thus Spoke Zarathustra, i would enver have to explain myself anymore.

interesting ideas... i think you express yourself poorly... i think you like explaining yourself... and your pm box is full...

 

[Moonbear]

You are wrong, and then you are right, though entirely by mistake, since you are not right in the sense that you are thinking.

Wow, that was a pretty condescending statement!

Gale has made some good points here about acceptance of other people. Just because someone isn't good in physics, or hasn't yet grasped the concepts well enough to get beyond memorization, doesn't mean they are stupid, it just means physics isn't their strength, or they haven't quite acquired that strength yet. When I was in high school, I was one of those students who memorized all the equations because I didn't yet have the math background to fully understand how they were derived (if the guidance counselor knew anything about physics, she might have done me the favor of recommending I wait to take physics in my senior year when I had the calculus to go with it). Since I didn't know why I didn't understand, having not had the calculus to know that's where the concepts were taught that I needed, I hated physics! Truly hated it in high school, and I would have never thought I'd wind up someday visiting a physics forum and telling students to hang in there and stick with it because it really is fun.

Now, did it make me stupid because I was memorizing those equations to scrape by and pass the class in high school? No, it did not. It just meant I didn't yet have the skill set I needed to master that particular subject. I was terrible in history class too. It was taught in a way that was so dreadfully boring, I never even had the motivation to study it. Now I read books about history for entertainment I enjoy it so much, and wish I had more time to indulge in that.

So, for those people who are going to be condescending about those who are still struggling in high school and who haven't quite found their passion in life yet, get over yourselves.

 

[franznietzsche]

interesting ideas... i think you express yourself poorly

I tend to assume to much of the same background and thought when speaking. An unfortunate side effect of too much internal discourse when I'm awake and no one else is.

... i think you like explaining yourself

Sometimes. I don't like giving full lectures on nietzsche though. Love reading it, but its not easy to explain, its not written as a discourse. The books are essentially 200 pages of rambling and ranting, with only a minimum of structure. This is because they are largely written in short aphorisms.

... and your pm box is full...

fixed.

 

[Knavish]

This thread has turned into a cesspool of arrogance. Franznietzsche, you must have been really neglected and forcefully outcasted to come out with such a heart..

Why do you make an effort to oppose simple, gracious behaviour in everyday life? You're wearing yourself out; and, of course, as you have probably found out, it's not getting you anywhere. What's the point of sequestering yourself and hating everybody? It's stupid, and you know it. What's the point of devoting so much of your time to making pointless, cocky posts on the internet? It's damn stupid too. Seriously, the only reason I can imagine somebody dishing out peremptory one-liners is for attention.

Well, anyway, maybe once you stop fighting the society to stick out - and, don't worry, everybody loves attention - you'll realize how much more peaceful it is to be yourself.

 

[KingNothing]

I, like the rest of my forum buddies here probably don't want to read through this whole nietsche-gale drama that has played itself out. Yes, many people have redeeming qualities. Some people are all around better than others, as well. The topic at hand was how many people were basically stupid, which isn't a very hard question, and by no means do redeeming qualities like health or socialization make a person not stupid.

And let's be honest, people are stupid. People are ugly. People are jerks. There's really no reason (moonbear) to say that those people simply haven't reached 'that point' (of being un-stupid, etc) yet if they are generally not trying to and don't plan to. Besides, give credit where credit is due - recognize stupid people as stupid, ugly as ugly, etc. It's no different than recognizing good qualities.

 

[Pengwuino]

"How many people in your physics and chemistry (and other science) classes just memorized equations, and actually had no idea how it worked or what the equations meant?"

For me, around 50%. Which is pretty funny when the teacher throws a wrench in a test and asks for a logical explanation of whatever the unit is about.

Everyone...

 

[RoboSapien]

They Used to think I am stupid but as years past by they realized that it was their incomprehendibility that was the problem. Because now they know what I used to talk about but today they still can't understand what I say.

 

[graphic7]

I think we're generalizing too much here. We need to create some classifications. Yes, not all students are idiots just because they haven't learned the material. Let's call those group, A, which are the ones that have a slight interest to learn it. There's also another bunch of students that 1) don't have a familiarisation with material, yet 2) don't want to 3) and will make it hard for you by making your social life hell, so let's call them group, B.

I think franz here is referring to group B. In that case, I absolutely agree with him. If a student is making my social life hell, how do you think I should treat his academic life? I'm not going send flames, I'm going to send napalm.

Edit: I've met these type of students before. I had to deal with them all through high school, which is primarily the reason I graduated high school 3 years earlier than I should have. These are also the people that make high school nothing more than a social hunting ground, therefore, making high school a very, very unproductive environment (certainly something I don't want to take part of). As franz would say, the (public) school system is ran by politicians, and is fundamentally flawed. In absolutely, no way does it let students who have or have the capability to master the material to enjoy their full potential while they attend it.

 

[misogynisticfeminist]

Now, did it make me stupid because I was memorizing those equations to scrape by and pass the class in high school? No, it did not. It just meant I didn't yet have the skill set I needed to master that particular subject. I was terrible in history class too. It was taught in a way that was so dreadfully boring, I never even had the motivation to study it. Now I read books about history for entertainment I enjoy it so much, and wish I had more time to indulge in that.

So, for those people who are going to be condescending about those who are still struggling in high school and who haven't quite found their passion in life yet, get over yourselves.

Actually mooonbear, I have to say that its not specifically about people who don't derive equations whom i consider "stupid". Of course, its about ENQUIRY, the people who don't bother to question, to challenge and to ask and simply memorize model answers are those who i simply look down on.

 

[Monique]

Of course, its about ENQUIRY, the people who don't bother to question, to challenge and to ask and simply memorize model answers are those who i simply look down on.

You should not look down on other people. Not everyone has the same objective in life. For you it is to understand all the workings of equations, for others it will be something else.

If someone is a professor in the field and does not know how an equation works, you are free to call him stupid.

 

[KingNothing]

You should not look down on other people. Not everyone has the same objective in life. For you it is to understand all the workings of equations, for others it will be something else.

Looking down on people is part of life. If there is no displeasurable behavior that you witness or practice, how can you possibly have distinctive goals?

 

[Monique]

Distinctive goals come from within. I don't need to feel superior to other people to feel good about myself.

 

[Moonbear]

Actually mooonbear, I have to say that its not specifically about people who don't derive equations whom i consider "stupid". Of course, its about ENQUIRY, the people who don't bother to question, to challenge and to ask and simply memorize model answers are those who i simply look down on.

I agree with Monique here. Looking down on people makes you no different than the people graphic7 is talking about who pick on certain kids because of the way they dress, or the clique they belong to, or because they're perceived as smarter.

Actually, if you are looking down at those other students, talking to them in a condescending way, and acting as though nothing they do is as good as what you do, then why wouldn't they lash back, possibly with violence, for being made to feel 2 inches tall by you? Granted, there are bullies who just pick on the easiest target, the shy kid with his nose buried in books, but you have to realize that some people get picked on because of the attitude they are projecting. People don't like condescending attitudes and will eventually get irritated enough by being constantly put-down that they will react to that and attack back.

This is something that truly concerns me around here. Undoubtedly, students who come to PF and who are doing well studying subjects like physics and math are bright students, and may even be brighter than the rest of the class, but just because that comes easy to you or you have a talent for that material doesn't mean the other kids are stupid. It's an ugly attitude to have, and all it will do for you is make you enemies and raise your blood pressure.

If they aren't trying in high school, it could also be that they've given up because they have gotten frustrated, and hearing one of the smarter kids talking to them in such a condescending manner is only going to make them feel worse about that, even if they have great potential. What about the kid who is feeling insecure about themself, but comes here to PF to anonymously ask questions and try to learn and improve their understanding and sees all these posts about how you all think that type of student is stupid? Those students who are struggling with science are the ones we MOST want to come here and seek help. I don't want them to feel abandoned and give up hope, I want them to have another chance at it to find another way to have it explained to them and to help them come to love the subject the way the rest of us do.

Honestly, it disappoints me to see such bright, promising students as we have here projecting such an ugly attitude.

 

[Monique]

[..] just because that comes easy to you or you have a talent for that material doesn't mean the other kids are stupid. It's an ugly attitude to have[..]

I could not agree more. You will be a much better, and more satisfied, person when you see the good qualities within another people. THAT is something you can learn from.

 

[KingNothing]

To elaborate on what moonbear said, bullying someone for their stupidity is unacceptable. Putting them in their place when they look down on you for your intelligence is another.

Let's get a few things straight here: In very few high schools is physics required, if any. If a person is to take a non-required class that is more difficult than many others (often AP classes) it implies that they are going to at least try to do it. Struggling to understand is one thing, not trying to understand is another. Frankly there are way too many from both groups in classes. If a kid can't understand calculus for his life, then maybe he shouldn't be in a calculus class. Same goes for physics or any other.

If I'm in a physics class, it gets very annoying when people refuse to actually understand the material, especially when they cite that 'they arent ever going to use it'. The basic question you think in your head is "then why are you in this class?".

The best thing one can do in any class is to truly understand the subject rather than just memorize it. It's really not even learning if you just memorize things.

I along with probably everyone else here understands that some people struggle in different areas. We probably all have at times. But people who consciously make the choice to not further their knowledge, that's a different story. People who come to PF looking for help on something because they are trying to understand but are not - those are not the people we are talking about here. Those aren't the people that simply memorize things.

What about the kid who is feeling insecure about themself, but comes here to PF to anonymously ask questions and try to learn and improve their understanding and sees all these posts about how you all think that type of student is stupid?

And where the heck did you read that? I sincerely doubt that everyone that has posted in this thread will accept this stereotype. You are way off on this one. Who here ever said that they think people who come on here to ask humble questions are stupid?

I can't tell you how much respect I have for people who have the humility to come here and ask questions even when they aren't very difficult.

Once again it seems there is a small level of ignorance in this thread. The ability to see good qualities by no means has a mutually exclusive relationship with the ability to see bad qualities.

 

[Monique]

If a kid can't understand calculus for his life, then maybe he shouldn't be in a calculus class. Same goes for physics or any other.

If I'm in a physics class, it gets very annoying when people refuse to actually understand the material, especially when they cite that 'they arent ever going to use it'. The basic question you think in your head is 'then why are you in this class?'.

You know, I refuse to be frustrated by things like this. If they don't want to go into the particular field, they are true to state that 'they aren't ever going to use it'. You can ask: 'why are you in this class', but in order to find out that you don't like something, you need to experience it first. A kid won't know that they can't understand calculus for his life, unless the kid has actually taken calculus.

I would rather encourage the people to understand the concept of things or encourage them to take up other courses, than to look down upon them like trash. Frustration really is a black hole and leads to nothing, you should rather be constructive in your thinking. Just my philosophy.

 

[Polly]

Not having read the entire thread, this could be totally off the mark, but I do feel a line has to be drawn between accepting a person for what he is and deluding him as to his true ability. I have given private tuition to a few students and believe me there are really bone-heads who are totally impermeable to simple concepts. I would think in these cases the sooner someone breaks the news to him about his true standing in relation to others in terms of IQ and aptitude etc the better, for as least he could start thinking about vocational training.

 

[Moonbear]

If I'm in a physics class, it gets very annoying when people refuse to actually understand the material, especially when they cite that 'they arent ever going to use it'. The basic question you think in your head is "then why are you in this class?".

First, how do you know they are refusing to understand the material? Are you inside their head knowing what they think or whether they will ever gain an appreciation for the subject? There are plenty of high school teachers who fail to show the students how subjects are relevant to anything beyond the school walls. This leaves those students thinking they are just plodding through classes to graduate. Also, while the basic question sometimes is, "why are you in this class," the answer in high school sometimes is their parents pushed them into it, their guidance counselor pushed them into it, or they didn't really know what it would be about when they signed up for it. It's all part of the learning experience, and many students, even at the college level, are still being pushed to take courses they are not interested in by their parents. It is unfortunate, and while I don't have as much sympathy for them at the college level when they are adults and should be learning to make decisions for themselves about their courses and major, at the high school level, I understand that parents don't always make the best choices for their children and the children are forced to live by those choices.

While some students will never do well in a subject or never will have an interest in it, their performance or interest in the subject in high school is not always a good measure of what will happen later in their life as they gain more experience in the world and take a more mature perspective on learning. Remember, people mature at different rates, and these differences are most apparent at the high school level. You may have a very mature outlook on learning, while someone else is still more immature; not stupid, but immature. In a few years, they could realize what they've been missing out on and tackle the subject with vigor.

And where the heck did you read that? I sincerely doubt that everyone that has posted in this thread will accept this stereotype. You are way off on this one. Who here ever said that they think people who come on here to ask humble questions are stupid?

There are posts in this thread that give that impression, whether that's what the poster intended or not. Try to read this thread keeping that struggling student in mind and see if you think they would be encouraged to try harder or discouraged feeling stupid for coming here.

 

[graphic7]

A student coming to these forums and posting a question, or a plea for help does not demonstrate he/she is `stupid.' In fact, that's what I would qualify as a person that wants to learn the material. To memorize the equations is just staring at the text for a given amount of time; coming here to post, demonstrates that student has the desire for more. I might be blind, but I've never seen a post such as, "Show me an easy way to remember Newton's laws." It just doesn't happen. In fact, students usually come here for insight into Newton's laws, and sometimes, their derivations. I don't think anyone here would qualify that student as `stupid,' no matter how many posts it takes to walk that student through the derivations.

Remember, the definition of `stupid,' is the inability to learn. Note in the definition the word `inability,' which certainly (to me, at least) could mean the student does not have the desire to learn, i.e. "seak a greater understanding." Memorizing is not seeking a greater understanding. I'd classify a person like that as stupid without any hesitation. This would then mean that the bulk of high school students are `stupid.'

Edit: Also, worrying more about your social status than your academic performance warrants a classifcation of stupidity for that person. There is no, "Well, he or she memorizes equations, but he/she can dress stylishly." Dressing stylishly does not define intelligence. In fact, I'm disgusted to see that used as an excuse for those high school students that me, franz, and a few others have been referring to as `stupid.'

 

[Moonbear]

Not having read the entire thread, this could be totally off the mark, but I do feel a line has to be drawn between accepting a person for what he is and deluding him as to his true ability.

I don't think you're off-the-mark considering the direction the thread has taken. There is a difference, as you pointed out, between accepting someone for who they are and yet being realistic about what their strengths and weaknesses are. If you believe they are stupid for not being able to master a subject, you will have a much harder time being effective at your latter suggestion of guiding them toward an appropriate vocation.

This is something I do have to guide students in, both at the undergraduate and graduate level. I try to do this cautiously, because sometimes there are issues in a student's life of which I am unaware that are affecting their performance that come up during such a discussion. There is nothing wrong with taking a course and finding out it's not something you're good at or interested in taking further, and it is valuable to learn even that. Because I deal with a lot of pre-med students, I have had this discussion with many students who were pushed into pre-med by their parents and then are faced with the reality that they are either not interested or not particularly good at biology. Rather than just tell them they need to do something else, I sit with them and find out if there's a reason they are struggling biology that is unrelated to aptititude...is it a side effect of another course they are struggling with taking too much of their study time away from biology, or are they having a tough time adjusting to life in college, perhaps they're homesick or missing their high school sweetheart, or have a roommate that's interrupting their studying? If it really turns out that they just don't have an aptitude for biology or don't have the interest, the next step is to start finding out what they are good at. Are they just loving that English literature class, or psychology, etc.? Once I find out their strengths, I can then explore with them possible career options where they hold those strengths.

The most challenging students to advise are those who are struggling in all their classes across the board. There are a few options for them, and it's a delicate situation to explain them. For some of those students, they just haven't yet found the subject that will interest them, and recommending they take a greater variety of introductory courses is always an option. Sometimes they just need to find that one class that inspires them. For others, it's a matter of addressing a problem with study skills or getting an undiagnosed learning disability evaluated and identified, and there are others who truly aren't ready to handle college. I can't say whether they ever will be, because there are people who fail out and return in a few years with a new-found maturity and excel, but at the time, it's just not worth wasting their money on tuition. For them, I recommend time off to work. Some will go off and never return, others will work a few years and return when they have a better idea what they want to do with their life.

I have also found that those students who don't seem to be able to get even the simplest concept have become less and less prevalent as I've improved my own teaching skills. Not that every student will master the harder concepts, but I see many failures as that of the teacher, not of the student.

 

[Moonbear]

Memorizing is not seeking a greater understanding. I'd classify a person like that as stupid without any hesitation. This would then mean that the bulk of high school students are `stupid.'

What if they have not yet matured in their learning to realize there is more to learning than memorization? This is well recognized in educational psychology. Memorization is considered a less mature form of learning. Piaget referred to this as "concrete operational." I think this terminology is somewhat dated, but it gets the point across. At this level, students are still seeing things as black and white, right or wrong, you memorize information and regurgitate it. Indeed, much of the way classes are taught in high school still reinforces this mode of learning. It's a matter of creating an "index" of facts to build upon. As students mature, and when this happens is variable (for some it happens early in high school, in others not until a few years into college, and for some people, they never reach this stage), they begin to make connections and see relationships among these facts, and truly obtain understanding. This is an advanced stage of learning, and is "formal learning." Awareness of these two stages of learning will help you be a more effective teacher, especially if you are teaching freshmen in college. Only a few students will have fully developed formal learning/thinking, while the majority have newly acquired this realization or are still in the process of transition to this new mode of learning, and an effective teacher will guide students through this transition by providing examples of the types of connections the students should be making between topics. For example, students may be able to relate all the concepts in a single chapter or in one chapter to the chapter before it, but are still missing the connections between chapters taught more temporally separate from one another. Showing where some of these connections exist helps these students to start making these relationships and finding them on their own.

 

[Gale]

Generally, i just don't think its fair to group a number of people and call each individual stupid. I can understand looking at on person and some of their attributes and then judging, (though i really don't condone that either.) But overall i think its fair to say all people who memorize formulas are stupid.

Also, as moonbear said, a lot of kids seeking help here could be thoroughly discouraged due to statements in this thread and others. I know when i came to pf, and sometimes even today, i get the impression others think I'm too stupid to keep around. When i first joined pf, i was very depressed overall, and any time i got the impression i looked stupid, i got very upset. I left pf for a year cause i felt stupid.

really though, on a large public forum like this, i think its best for everyone if we all show some more tolerance, or at very least, more discretion. No one likes to feel bad, period. And especially if you know what its like, you shouldn't make others feel bad either.

 

[KingNothing]

You know, I refuse to be frustrated by things like this. If they don't want to go into the particular field, they are true to state that 'they aren't ever going to use it'. You can ask: 'why are you in this class', but in order to find out that you don't like something, you need to experience it first. A kid won't know that they can't understand calculus for his life, unless the kid has actually taken calculus.

That's not entirely true. People know their abilities in a subject based on what they've done before, even if its not the same. Someone who had a very difficult time in advanced geometry probably knows that he or she isn't able to do calculus.

And on top of that, people have the choice - teachers usually say how hard the class will be and that you need to make the choice to go or stay. A few days into calculus most calc classes are actually doing calculus. If someone has a very hard time and no real motivation to understand it, then they really shouldn't be in that class. You can't just let anyone do anything they want, especially when they are terrible at it.

Moonbear - How do I know they are refusing to understand the material? Because they say so. People, say, in physics who generally don't care about understanding what's actually going on when modeling motion basically will say just that - that they just want the equations. When you try to help someone in school, it becomes pretty apparent what their goals are as far as the material.

And kids being forced into classes by their parents is a completely different story. However in that case I have very little sympathy for many of these people I know, for most of them have simply backed down to their parents and haven't made any attempt at compromise or appeasement.

If to enact your point would effectively mean changing the question to "so how many people in your high school were pretty immature learners", then so be it, it's saying pretty much the same thing.

 

[motai]

I know when i came to pf, and sometimes even today, i get the impression others think I'm too stupid to keep around. When i first joined pf, i was very depressed overall, and any time i got the impression i looked stupid, i got very upset. I left pf for a year cause i felt stupid.

really though, on a large public forum like this, i think its best for everyone if we all show some more tolerance, or at very least, more discretion. No one likes to feel bad, period. And especially if you know what its like, you shouldn't make others feel bad either.

I often have the same sentiments. Some of the material presented here is extremely difficult (if uncomprehensible) for those who have not officially learned the subject at hand. It is difficult when everyone else seems to know something that we have not gotten the opportunity to learn, and in asking a question about that particular subject, in turn only getting slightly (?) chastised for it.

These feelings of inadequacy are indeed tough to deal with. This entire week I have been needlessly stressing out over every single thing, from my calculus test to the other obligations that I tell myself I have to fulfill. It has, like before, driven me crazy as I frenzically try to learn every little thing and leaving no room for relaxation. The feelings of inadequacy in a way make me spiral out of control.

I am usually happy render assistance (what little I have) to anyone who is willing to listen, no barriers on previous education, because I know that I myself not often get the chance to have someone else lend me a helping hand. It just sucks when the helping hand occasionally slaps me for being ignorant of a particular topic, so I generally don't comment at all on most things unless I have an inkling of what I have to talk about.

Education should have no boundaries, and it is true that we should help those who need it, not chide them.

 

[Bladibla]

I somewhat disagree with memorisation meaning stupidity. I don't want to be too skeptical here, but we still do memorise F=ma for example when we are doing tests no? I mean, it's not like we have a choice. unless timed tests are scrapped, we won't get the pleasure of deriving Newtons law every time we do a test on it.

Don't get me wrong here. I agree with the claim that people who ONLY do memorisation is stupid, and unless they make an effort to change it, make that period.

I believe that memorisation given that you KNOW the actual derivation is no problem.

 

[KingNothing]

I believe that memorisation given that you KNOW the actual derivation is no problem.

My thoughts exactly.