So, the final answer would be 0. Is that correct?

  • Context: MHB 
  • Thread starter Thread starter evinda
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Integral Value
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around evaluating the limit of an integral involving a test function $\phi$ as $\epsilon$ approaches 0. Participants explore the implications of the integral's components, particularly focusing on the terms involving $\ln{|x|}$ and $\frac{\phi}{|x|}$, and seek justifications for certain equalities and limits.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether $\int_{|x|=\epsilon} \ln{|x|} \frac{\partial{\phi}}{\partial{\eta}} dS$ equals 0 and seeks justification for this claim.
  • Another participant suggests that the integral can be expressed as $\ln{\epsilon} \int_{|x|=\epsilon} \frac{\partial{\phi}}{\partial{\eta}} dS$ and discusses the limit of the overall expression as $\epsilon$ approaches 0.
  • A third participant references Green's First Identity to support the claim that the integral $\int_{|x|=\epsilon} \ln{|x|} \frac{\partial{\phi}}{\partial{\eta}} dS$ can be shown to equal 0, though this is not universally accepted.
  • One participant raises a question about how to demonstrate that $\int_{|x|=\epsilon} \frac{\partial{\phi}}{\partial{\eta}} dS$ is bounded.
  • Another participant calculates the limit of $\int_{|x|=\epsilon} \frac{\phi}{|x|} dS$ and questions whether $\int_{|x|=0} 1 dS$ equals 0, indicating uncertainty about the implications of this result.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the evaluation of the integrals and the conditions under which certain equalities hold. There is no consensus on whether the integral $\int_{|x|=\epsilon} \ln{|x|} \frac{\partial{\phi}}{\partial{\eta}} dS$ equals 0, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the limits and bounds of the integrals involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not fully resolved the assumptions related to the behavior of the test function $\phi$ and its derivatives near the limit as $\epsilon$ approaches 0. The discussion also reflects varying interpretations of the mathematical identities referenced.

evinda
Gold Member
MHB
Messages
3,741
Reaction score
0
Hello! (Wave)

I want to find the value of $\lim_{\epsilon \to 0}\int_{|x|=\epsilon} \left( \ln{|x|} \frac{\partial{\phi}}{\partial{\eta}}- \frac{\phi}{|x|}\right) dS$, where $\phi$ is a test function and $|x|=\sqrt{x_1^2+ x_2^2}$.

Does it hold that $\int_{|x|=\epsilon} \ln{|x|} \frac{\partial{\phi}}{\partial{\eta}} dS=0$ ? How can we justify it?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
I have thought the following:

It holds that $ \int_{|x|=\epsilon} \ln{|x|} \frac{\partial{\phi}}{\partial{\eta}} dS= \int_{|x|=\epsilon} \ln{\epsilon} \frac{\partial{\phi}}{\partial{\eta}} dS= \ln{\epsilon }\int_{|x|=\epsilon} \frac{\partial{\phi}}{\partial{\eta}} dS$ and

$\int_{|x|=\epsilon} \frac{\phi}{|x|} dS= \frac{1}{\epsilon} \int_{|x|=\epsilon} \phi dS$

So we have that $\lim_{\epsilon \to 0}\int_{|x|=\epsilon} \left( \ln{|x|} \frac{\partial{\phi}}{\partial{\eta}}- \frac{\phi}{|x|}\right) dS= \lim_{\epsilon \to 0} \left( \ln{\epsilon }\int_{|x|=\epsilon} \frac{\partial{\phi}}{\partial{\eta}} dS - \frac{1}{\epsilon} \int_{|x|=\epsilon} \phi dS \right)$Is it right so far? How could we continue? (Thinking)
 
Hi evinda!

evinda said:
Does it hold that $\int_{|x|=\epsilon} \ln{|x|} \frac{\partial{\phi}}{\partial{\eta}} dS=0$ ? How can we justify it?

Yes this can be shown. This will be a consequence of Green's First Identity (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green's_identities) with $\psi\equiv 1$. (Note: Green's First Identity is a consequence of the integration by parts formula, so some may say integration by parts is the true identity being applied.) Take a look at that formula to see if you can get what you're looking for. Let me know if anything is still unclear. Good luck!
 
How can we show that $\int_{|x|=\epsilon} \frac{\partial{\phi}}{\partial{\eta}} dS$ is bounded ?
 
Last edited:
I want to calculate the limit $\lim_{\epsilon \to 0} \int_{|x|=\epsilon} \frac{\phi}{|x|} dS$.I have thought the following:$\lim_{\epsilon \to 0} \int_{|x|=\epsilon} \frac{\phi}{|x|} dS=\lim_{\epsilon \to 0} \frac{1}{\epsilon} \cdot \lim_{\epsilon \to 0}\int_{|x|=\epsilon} \phi dS=\lim_{\epsilon \to 0} \frac{1}{\epsilon} \int_{|x|=0} \phi dS=\lim_{\epsilon \to 0} \frac{1}{\epsilon} \phi(0) \int_{|x|=0} 1 dS $.

But $\int_{|x|=0} 1 dS$ is equal to 0, isn't it?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
Replies
6
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K