So what is the new definition of the kilogram?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the recent redefinition of the kilogram, specifically its new basis in Planck's constant. Participants explore the implications of this change, the mathematical relationships involved, and the broader context of redefining measurement standards in science.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about the new definition of the kilogram and its relationship to Planck's constant, with one participant attempting to derive a formula involving Planck's constant, speed of light, and meter.
  • Another participant provides a clearer statement of the new definition, specifying the fixed numerical value of Planck's constant.
  • Questions arise regarding the status of the speed of light and the definition of the second, with some participants suggesting that the changes to the kilogram imply a redefinition of these units.
  • Participants clarify that the speed of light remains defined in SI units and that the second is still based on the cesium hyperfine transition, despite changes in wording.
  • There is discussion about the implications of moving from physical prototypes to defined constants for measurement standards, with some participants noting the advantages of using universal constants.
  • One participant raises concerns about the shift from empirical definitions to defined terms, seeking thoughts on the implications of this evolution in metrology.
  • Others express appreciation for the new SI system, acknowledging its conceptual clarity despite initial difficulties in understanding it.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit a mix of agreement and disagreement regarding the implications of the kilogram's redefinition. While there is consensus on the new definition involving Planck's constant, there is uncertainty about the effects on other units and the broader implications of moving to defined standards.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the observed drift in the mass of the Reference Kilogram and discuss the transition from empirical to defined standards without reaching a consensus on the implications of this shift.

  • #61
Dale said:
Avogadro’s number is now exact.

GuyBarry said:
is that the Avogadro constant is unconnected with the definition of the kilogram

Right, like "a dozen" means twelve of anything. Twelve apples, twelve dwarves, twelve eggs. Avogadro's number is a super-jumbo sized "dozen."

By the way, I worked with an older guy who routinely said "six times ten to the 23; Ava Gardner's number" with a straight face.
 
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  • #62
gmax137 said:
Right, like "a dozen" means twelve of anything. Twelve apples, twelve dwarves, twelve eggs. Avogadro's number is a super-jumbo sized "dozen."

You've got it exactly. The Avogadro constant is expressed in the units mol-1. You might as well define "dozen" as an SI unit (symbol "doz") and specify the "dozenal constant" as 1.2 x 101 doz-1.

Not really a "unit" in the sense that it's otherwise understood - just a gigantic multiplier.
 
  • #63
I went over to https://www.bipm.org/en/measurement-units/rev-si/ and I found https://www.bipm.org/utils/en/pdf/si-revised-brochure/Draft-SI-Brochure-2018.pdf (5 February 2018).
The previous definition of the mole fixed the value of the molar mass of carbon 12, M(12C), to be exactly 0.012 kg/mol. According to the present definition M(12C) is no longer known exactly and must be determined experimentally. The value chosen for NA is such that at the time of adopting the present definition of the mole, M(12C) was equal to 0.012 kg/mol with a relative standard uncertainty of 4.5 × 10−10.
So the atomic mass unit will be redefined as (1 gram) / (Avogadro's number), independent of carbon-12.
 
  • #64
lpetrich said:
I went over to https://www.bipm.org/en/measurement-units/rev-si/ and I found https://www.bipm.org/utils/en/pdf/si-revised-brochure/Draft-SI-Brochure-2018.pdf (5 February 2018).

So the atomic mass unit will be redefined as (1 gram) / (Avogadro's number), independent of carbon-12.

I really don't think that's correct. If you look at the top of page 29 it says "The dalton (Da) and the unified atomic mass unit (u) are alternative names (and symbols) for the same unit, equal to 1/12 of the mass of a free carbon 12 atom, at rest and in its ground state". So the amu is not being redefined.

Under the new definitions, the relative atomic mass of carbon-12 will remain exactly 12. However, the molar mass of carbon-12 will no longer be exactly 0.012 kg/mol. A consequence of this is that the molar mass constant, which was previously defined at exactly 0.001 kg/mol, will now be determined experimentally. It can still be taken as 1 g/mol for practical purposes. From Wikipedia:

Because the new SI definitions include a new definition of the mole through giving the Avogadro constant an exact numerical value, the value of the molar mass constant will no longer have an exactly defined value, assuming that the definition of a dalton (one twelfth of the rest mass of an unbound neutral atom of carbon-12 in its nuclear and electronic ground state) does not change. Therefore, while still retaining with great accuracy a value of 1 g/mol, the molar mass constant will no longer be exactly defined at that value.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molar_mass_constant
 
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