The new definition of kg and the mass-energy equivalence

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the redefinition of the kilogram through the Planck constant and its potential connection to mass-energy equivalence. Participants explore the implications of using fundamental constants for defining mass, as well as the relevance of Einstein's equation in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express skepticism about the relevance of mass-energy equivalence in the redefinition of the kilogram, suggesting that it may not play a significant role.
  • One participant proposes that the new definition of the kilogram could be linked to the equation ##mc^2 = E = h\nu##, indicating a deeper connection that was not previously considered.
  • There is a discussion about the precision of the value for mass in relation to the Planck constant, with one participant noting that a specific numerical representation may not be appropriate in this context.
  • Another participant acknowledges the equivalence of the current definition and the proposed one based on mass-energy equivalence for practical purposes, while questioning the necessity of involving mass-energy equivalence in the definition process.
  • Participants engage in a light-hearted exchange regarding the accuracy of mathematical representations and the interpretation of terms used in the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the relevance of mass-energy equivalence in the redefinition of the kilogram, with multiple competing views remaining regarding its significance and the appropriateness of certain mathematical representations.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions about the role of mass-energy equivalence in the definition of the kilogram and the implications of using specific numerical values in this context. Additionally, the discussion highlights the importance of precision in scientific definitions.

FranzDiCoccio
Messages
350
Reaction score
43
TL;DR
Is there any connection between the new definition of the kilogram based on the Planck constant and the mass-energy equivalence?
Hi,
today I stumbled upon a 2016 article in Scientific American about the (then) possibility of re-defining the kilogram through Planck's constant.
The article is really a very quick review of the topic. At some point the author states the following "So for years, physicists have chased an elusive dream: replacing the physical kilogram with a standard inherent in properties of nature such as the speed of light, the wavelength of photons and the Planck constant (also called h-bar), which links the energy a wave carries with its frequency of oscillation. Scientists could use the Planck constant to compare the energy of a wave with Einstein's iconic ##E=m c^2## equation; in that way, they would determine mass solely through the physical constants."

I really do not see the relevance of Einstein's equation in the redefinition of the kilogram.

As far as I understand, the point here is to define a standard for mass. This is now done basically by choosing some fundamental constants of Nature and assuming them as units for their "physical dimension". In this approach, "everyday" physical dimensions (such as mass), which used to be fundamental, become composite physical dimensions that can be obtained from those defined by the constants.

Thus,, maybe oversimplifying, if action is measured in units of ##h##, frequency is measured in units of ##\Delta \nu_{\rm Cs}## and speed is defined in units of ##c##, then the (now composite) unit of mass corresponds to
$$
1 kg = 1.4755214\cdot 10^{40} \frac{h\,\Delta \nu_{\rm Cs}}{c^2}
$$

I might be wrong, but I'm under the impression that the author was a bit shoddy in referring to the mass-energy equivalence.
By the way, she was not very precise about Planck constant either. It is not exactly true that the Planck constant is called "h-bar". That is the reduced Planck constant, whose value is ##h/2\pi##.

Does anyone know whether the mass-energy relation really played a role in the choice of ##h## for the definition of the mass unit?

I looked into a previous discussion, but I was not able to find a connection.

Thanks a lot
Franz
 
Physics news on Phys.org
FranzDiCoccio said:
Summary: Is there any connection between the new definition of the kilogram based on the Planck constant and the mass-energy equivalence?

I looked into a previous discussion, but I was not able to find a connection.
Did you look deep enough ? One level deeper (under Kilogram) there is a proposed definition based on ##mc^2 = E = h\nu##. Apparently didn't make it.

Your 1.4755214⋅1040 is -- in this context -- a form of rounding that isn't allowed.
 
Hi BvU,
thanks for your reply.

BvU said:
Did you look deep enough ?

I looked at the article I linked, at the BIMP page and at the thread I linked.

One level deeper (under Kilogram) there is a proposed definition based on ##mc^2 = E = h\nu##.

Ok, now I see. I hadn't found that definition. I did not think of looking into Wikipedia too. Now the comment of the author makes more sense, especially because when the article was written a decision had not been made yet.

Apparently didn't make it.

I'd say that both the present definition and the proposal based on ##E = mc^2## are equivalent, for practical purposes.
They ultimately rely on a very precise measurement of ##h##.
It would be interesting to know why the phrasing involving the mass-energy equivalence was rejected.

For what it is worth, my feeling is that there is no need of involving the mass-energy equivalence in the whole process. It feels like an "extra step".
I'll try to look deeper into that.

Your 1.4755214⋅1040 is -- in this context -- a form of rounding that isn't allowed.

Uhm, I copied that straight from the BIMP page (see under kilogram). I did not do any rounding.
 
FranzDiCoccio said:
Uhm, I copied that straight
Well, you did replace their ##\approx## by an equals sign :smile: .
(at least the one here on p 131). Also:
1568363515040.png


I sense some humour in the term 'straight' 😉
 
Oh, right, sorry. Did not notice that, you're right.
 

Similar threads

Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 25 ·
Replies
25
Views
4K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
2K
  • · Replies 63 ·
3
Replies
63
Views
16K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K