Socialist Health Care: Does it Work?

[t-money]

It doesn't work in Europe and Canada, what makes U.S politicians think that it will work here?

 

[turbo]

Post some links to prove that it doesn't work anywhere else. Post some links to prove that the US's infant mortality rate, life expectancy, detection and treatment of preventable diseases, etc, are superior to countries that have universal health care coverage. You're going to have a hard time supporting your opinions because you are dead wrong.

 

[t-money]

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8172

http://www.onthefencefilms.com/video/deadmeat/
Here are some good videos, definitely check out "Dead Meat"

http://www.freemarketcure.com/
Here is a Good little video about the uninsured in America myth

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2007/03/infant_mortality.cfm
This one pertains directly to infant mortality

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/w...2680d22b&ei=5094&partner=homepage&oref=slogin

Just a few that came to mind

 

[turbo]

You have posted links to right-wing sites that support your skewed view with no reliable statistics. Post some links to independent comparative reviews of the parameters that I suggested, including reviews of the total cost of health care in universal-coverage scenarios and the US system.

Among developed countries, where does the US rank in infant mortality, longevity, incidence of preventable disease, and cost of health-care? You seem not to care for facts, just rhetoric.

 

[t-money]

Did you look at any of the videos, or read the articles? Because I used to be in favor of universal health care until I read the opposing views. For example how do you define the cause of infant mortality. Over 50% of the deaths are from premature births in the U.S., not infections or bad care, you can only do so much to help a premature baby. Death rate statistics don't control for murders (includes suicide), car accidents and accidental deaths, which have nothing to do with health care.

Besides one of my source is the New York Times, they are as left wing as you can get.

 

[turbo]

Yes, I did look at some of the videos. And if you think the New York Times is left-wing and that everything printed in it is left-wing, you have some learning to do. Have you ever heard of Judith Miller (apologist for Bush's attack on Iraq)?

 

[Moridin]

'Socialist' Health Care actually works. Sweden has been ruled by social democracy for the majority of the last 100 years and it is in the top of the UN Human Development Report 2005. What doesn't work is the current US health care system.

http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2005/

An interesting look at the history of the US health care system and what is actually wrong with it, I recommend the book The Betrayal of Trust: The Collapse of Global Public Health by Laurie Garrett. Basically, it is underfunded and they have wrong priorities. Their focus should be public health.

Oh, by the way, the US has had 'socialist' health care for the past 30 years or more. Ever heard of medicaid and medicare?

 

[EL]

It doesn't work in Europe and Canada, what makes U.S politicians think that it will work here?

It works pretty well here (Sweden).

(And now I see that this was what Moridin wrote above.)

Just another comment: You are so biased over there.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

What is the tax rate in sweden?

There are good arguments on both ends of the issue. There will be no fantastic solution either way. My girlfriend is living in London for 6 months for work. She mentioned that she wanted to get some dental work done but that she'd most likely wait to get back in the states because there is a 3+ month wait.

I also visited Vancouver over the summer and met with some relatives living there who are older and they have nothing but negative things to say about the system. Long waits and poor service.

Oh, by the way, the US has had 'socialist' health care for the past 30 years or more. Ever heard of medicaid and medicare?

yeah and those programs have been complete disasters.

Overall though I dunno, I'm still on the edge either way.

btw turbo, NY times is definitely not right wing ;)

 

[EL]

What is the tax rate in sweden?

About 30%.
On top of that the employer has to pay a similar amount named "social fees" which for example goes to your own pension.
So effectively that will be something like 45% of what the employer pays which goes into taxes and fees (but you'll get some of it back as pension).

 

[Moridin]

http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/574/a/30215;jsessionid=alEtytpI1O_5

The public sector has responsibility for many services in Sweden, including education, labor market and industrial policies, health care, pensions and other social security, as well as environmental protection. Swedish taxes are relatively high, the revenue however goes back to the taxpayers in the form of public service. It is not like in the US where tax dollars just go missing =P

Personally, I do not think that I agree fully with either the current republican and democrat suggestions / strategies.

Sweden and the US cannot really be compared, not now at least. Sweden has not spent trillions of $$ on war. That makes politics a lot harder in the US, for obvious reasons.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

and cost of health-care?

But ultimately, lowering price does not lower cost. Why should pharmaceutical companies continue to pump what has been said 900 million per drug in research and development. You lower insurance and medical care prices, but that drug development cost does not change. What also won't change is the cost to goto medical school. Doctors will make less, and maybe new students will not think it's a good idea anymore and become lawyers. After all, britian outsources nearly 60% of their doctors now

 

[Moridin]

yeah and those programs have been complete disasters.

Perhaps, but it is important to remember that those programs have saved millions of people and limited the scale of epidemic outbreaks that would have effected the rest of the population (TB, AIDS etc.). I agree that they could have been handled much, much better and gotten their priorities straight.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I agree that they could have been handled much, much better and gotten their priorities straight.

Indeed but problem is that thought has been uttered throughout US history and it never magically comes true. I am very skeptical that congress and the white house will suddendly get their act together and make something actually work.

 

[turbo]

Every time there is a transfer of money, there is "friction" that bleeds money off to others. The more steps there are between the payment of insurance money to the final payment to suppliers of medical services, the more layers of denial of coverage, profit-taking, and other black holes that suck up the money, the greater the loss. Universal health care is not socialism/communism as the right-wingers assert. It is a basic, fundamental service that improves the productivity of a nation's work-force and protects our productivity. I live in Maine (surrounded by Canadian provinces)- a state in which the inability of businesses to supply cheap, decent, insurance let's businesses in our Canadian neighbors kick our collective butts.

 

[gravenewworld]

It doesn't work in Europe and Canada, what makes U.S politicians think that it will work here?

Hint: See health care in Japan

What is the tax rate in sweden?

There are good arguments on both ends of the issue. There will be no fantastic solution either way. My girlfriend is living in London for 6 months for work. She mentioned that she wanted to get some dental work done but that she'd most likely wait to get back in the states because there is a 3+ month wait.

I also visited Vancouver over the summer and met with some relatives living there who are older and they have nothing but negative things to say about the system. Long waits and poor service.

Hint: See health care in Japan
Japanese pay a similar amount of % wage tax as Americans do ( I think it is less), have universal health care, and have the same amount of waiting times as Americans do for health care.

See page 3 of an OECD study

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/5/27/26781192.pdf Japanese health care is easily one of THE best in the world, why not steal some ideas from them? Japan only spends 6.6% of their entire GDP on health care while Americans spend almost 14% of their entire GDP on health care.

 

[fourier jr]

It doesn't work in Europe and Canada, what makes U.S politicians think that it will work here?

it does work in Canada

 

[Skyhunter]

About 30%.
On top of that the employer has to pay a similar amount named "social fees" which for example goes to your own pension.
So effectively that will be something like 45% of what the employer pays which goes into taxes and fees (but you'll get some of it back as pension).

Median American household income which is a better representation than mean or average income is $48,201.

Average American household health insurance policy is $10,880, or 23% of income.

I think the Swedes are getting a better deal. Especially if you consider the fact that if you actually need health care in the US you will pay more. Add to this the taxes already paid for medicare and medicaid and there is little doubt that the Swedes are much better off.

And just because there are flaws in the Canadian and British systems, is in no way evidence that single-payer health care does not work. In fact Sweden is an example that disproves such a conclusion.

 

[gravenewworld]

Median American household income which is a better representation than mean or average income is $48,201.

Average American household health insurance policy is $10,880, or 23% of income.

I think the Swedes are getting a better deal. Especially if you consider the fact that if you actually need health care in the US you will pay more. Add to this the taxes already paid for medicare and medicaid and there is little doubt that the Swedes are much better off.

And just because there are flaws in the Canadian and British systems, is in no way evidence that single-payer health care does not work. In fact Sweden is an example that disproves such a conclusion.

That is skewing the facts. The $10K is the average premium for a family. Employers pay most of that 10 grand. Families aren't spending 23% of their income on health insurance.$ for $ Japan still has a much better health care system than Sweden.

 

[Skyhunter]

I am self employed, so I have to pay all of it.


I agree that Japans system is better.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Ok I think we can all agree having everyone insured is a good idea even if under a universal government system. But here is the problem, there are many proposals. How many of the democrats and pushing for a system like Japan?

 

[gravenewworld]

Ok I think we can all agree having everyone insured is a good idea even if under a universal government system. But here is the problem, there are many proposals. How many of the democrats and pushing for a system like Japan?

How many dems or repubs are pushing for a system like Japan? few probably. The insurance companies are a powerful lobby. Nothing significant in American politics will get done until campaign finance reform is enacted, but when will that ever happen?

 

[edward]

Pharmaceutical companies are spending 25% of their yearly budgets on commercials like this one.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Pharmaceutical companies are spending 25% of their yearly budgets on commercials like this one.

I think it's pretty funny. I have a hunch most commercial companies spend nearly as much on marketing.

 

[EL]

$ for $ Japan still has a much better health care system than Sweden.

Interesting, I don't know much about Japanese health care. What are the main differenses between the systems? I mean, what is it that makes the Japanese system better?
I think it can be pretty hard to compare different kind of systems. For example, the US health care can be really great, for those who can afford it that is. The Swedish system is good in the way it automatically includes everyone. If you are rich, you're probably slightly better off in US though. It all comes down to what you mean by "better".

 

[gravenewworld]

Interesting, I don't know much about Japanese health care. What are the main differenses between the systems? I mean, what is it that makes the Japanese system better?
I think it can be pretty hard to compare different kind of systems. For example, the US health care can be really great, for those who can afford it that is. The Swedish system is good in the way it automatically includes everyone. If you are rich, you're probably slightly better off in US though. It all comes down to what you mean by "better".

Well before I go to work I will list several quick reasons:1.) Japanese don't pay any where near the amount of taxes like other countries with UH do. They pay less or just about the same as Americans do in income tax.2.) Everyone has access to health care

3.) there really doesn't exist incredible waiting times for health care like there are in Canada and England (see OECD report)

4.) There is a lower hospital death rate in Japan due to mistakes by doctors than in the US

5.) Better equipped ( this is arguable). In the US, advanced technology is spotty in hospitals throughout the country. For example, Japan has 20+ MRI scanners per 10,000 people while in the US it is something around 10-15 MRI scanners per 10,0000 if I remember correctly.

6.) Japan spends only 6.6% of their GDP on health care. The US 14.6%.No time for listing sources. Time to go to work. Too Da Loo

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

6.) Japan spends only 6.6% of their GDP on health care. The US 14.6%.

And this is the problem. Socializing the American system won't fix it. We pay for overtreatment and for malpractice insurance. Take these two down if you want to fix it.

 

[EL]

1.) Japanese don't pay any where near the amount of taxes like other countries with UH do. They pay less or just about the same as Americans do in income tax.

Sounds nice. But could it be that a larger fraction of the taxes goes into health care in Japan compared to other countries with UH? Maybe the the total amount of money put specifically into the health system isn't that much smaller in Japan? (I'm just speculating.)

 

[Moridin]

6.) Japan spends only 6.6% of their GDP on health care. The US 14.6%.

Actually, the US is more like 16%. For comparison, Sweden is 9.2% of GDP.

Socializing the American system won't fix it. We pay for overtreatment and for malpractice insurance. Take these two down if you want to fix it.

The US health care system is riddled with inefficiencies, excessive administrative expenses, inflated prices, poor management, and inappropriate care or treatment. They spend $6,697 per person in 2005. Sweden has $2594 per capital spending.

About 50 million Americans are uninsured, the United States spends more on health care than other industrialized nations, and those countries provide health insurance to all their citizens. People do not have the money for insurance. Naturally, the US could get a lot of better health care for the privileged if they just ignored care of those 50 million.

Individualism in all honor, but to get the goods, you pay the price. But why should privileged people pay for the underprivileged when it comes to health care? Outbreaks do not discriminate between classes in society. The TB outbreaks in New York is a case-in-point.

Globalization has pushed communities against one and other when it comes to health care. I think it is time for public health to find a way to bridge the gaps and bring the US towards a rational and singular public health community because the health of one individual rises or falls with the health of all others. How to do this is another question.

http://www.health.state.ny.us/diseases/communicable/tuberculosis/fact_sheet.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=7993412&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/14/opinion/14thu2.html
http://www.cms.hhs.gov/NationalHealthExpendData/02_NationalHealthAccountsHistorical.asp
http://www.cms.hhs.gov/NationalHealthExpendData/downloads/highlights.pdf
http://www.cms.hhs.gov/NationalHealthExpendData/downloads/PieChartSourcesExpenditures2005.pdf
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st/st286/images/table-3.gif
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/15/25/34970222.pdf

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Outbreaks do not discriminate between classes in society. The TB outbreaks in New York is a case-in-point.

The American system is not that insane. If someone has a disease of this nature, they will be treated regardless of insurance.