News Socialist Health Care: Does it Work?

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The discussion centers on the effectiveness of universal health care systems in Europe and Canada compared to the U.S. Participants argue that the U.S. has higher infant mortality rates and lower life expectancy, questioning the belief that a similar system would succeed in the U.S. They highlight that many deaths in the U.S. are due to factors unrelated to health care quality, such as premature births and accidents. Some contributors defend the Swedish model as successful, while others cite long wait times and poor service in Canadian systems as drawbacks. Overall, the debate reflects deep divisions on health care policy and the viability of universal coverage in the U.S.
  • #91
Also see this Fraser Institute sourced report for for a http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=591038".
In 2005, the average Canadian family earned an income of $60,903 and paid total taxes equaling $28,467 (46.7 percent).
Im not familiar with the source nor the methods used
 
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  • #92
So, I think that it is fair to say that the current tax on Americans (including deductions) is at least as good as any other developed country. It would seem to me that we treat our poor relatively well. Again, if you have to declare bankruptcy to pay for expenses that saved your life, you were at least able to do so and continue living... in the USA.
 
  • #93
mheslep said:
Also see this Fraser Institute sourced report for for a http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=591038".

Im not familiar with the source nor the methods used

Keep in mind that the Frasier institution is a bunch of retarded lolbertarians. That number of http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil21a.htm is family income, meaning 2 people, meaning 2 separate tax filings, and completely separate tax brackets from a single person making 60k. If you take a leap and just assume husband and wife make the same income, that goes to 30k per person. I make just a bit more than that right now, and my income tax is about 20% of gross income.

I have no idea how they come up with 46% tax. My first guess would be that they add up all the taxes that are applied on every money transaction. Let me give an example of how this works. Let's say I make $1000 and pay $200 in income tax. That's 20%. Then I buy $800 in alcohol, which is about 99% tax (feel free to google search what tax-free ethanol is actually worth). So that's another $792 in tax. Add that to the original $200 income tax to get $992 of tax paid on $1000 of income. OMG T4X RATES ARE 99.2%!
They can make up any stats they want if they tried hard enough.

Stats Canada has a much different story. http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/060330/d060330a.htm
Median family gross income for 2004: $55,800
Median family income tax for 2004: $8,600
55800 - 8600 = $47,200 net
(55800 - 47200) / 55800 * 100 = 15.4% tax.

Remember that this include all write offs. Your children are huge tax writeoffs, education is written off, interest on loans for investment purposes is written off (bussiness loans, margin calls, etc). One big difference between Canada and the US is that interest on a mortgage for your primary residence is tax-free in the US, but not in Canada, so Canada's tax rate is a bit higher.

Anyway, the whole point was to show that you don't need to tax people up the ass to pay for socialized medicine. Canada probably does have higher taxes in a lot of cases, but it's very managable. This isn't france where there's no reason to actually work for anything.
 
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  • #94
ShawnD said:
I have no idea how they come up with 46% tax. My first guess would be that they add up all the taxes that are applied on every money transaction. Let me give an example of how this works. Let's say I make $1000 and pay $200 in income tax. That's 20%. Then I buy $800 in alcohol, which is about 99% tax (feel free to google search what tax-free ethanol is actually worth). So that's another $792 in tax. Add that to the original $200 income tax to get $992 of tax paid on $1000 of income. OMG T4X RATES ARE 99.2%!
They can make up any stats they want if they tried hard enough.

Well, methodologically you are supposed to account for all taxes. If someone only makes $10,000 a year, but doesn't pay any income taxes it is not correct to say they pay 0% taxes. Especially considering that they probably still paid a substantial amount of their income on some forms of taxes (I wouldn't be suprised if someone in this boat still would up paying around $1500 - $2000 in taxes for the entire year). I'm not sure how they calculated the tax rate, but I imagine they used the standard economic way, which is to figure how many dollars went to taxes and divide it by the salary or something similar.
 
  • #95
If they're accounting for total taxes taken, then it should be easy to start removing the ones that don't apply to me.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hl-vs/tobac-tabac/research-recherche/stat/ctums-esutc/2004/summarya-sommairea_e.html site lists all the prices of tobacco in 1997. Highest one, as expected, is Newfoundland (the overall tax rate in that crap-hole is easily twice that of Alberta). I'm in Alberta so the taxed amount of those daily cigarettes is 6.08*[(41.02-9.96)/41.02] = $4.60
That's per day, so multiply by 365 = $1,680

There's a lot of voluntary tax out there, and most of it doesn't apply to most people. Most people don't smoke, most people don't binge drink, and most people don't buy lottery tickets. Aside from income tax and the 5% sales tax, the biggest taxes I can think of are gasoline and property tax. Tax on gasoline is about half the purchase price, so that's about 50 cents per litre ($1.90 per gallon). Property tax is about 1% of property value, so that's maybe $4,000 per year if you live in a city with an ok or better economy. Scale up or down as needed.
 
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  • #96
ShawnD said:
If they're accounting for total taxes taken, then it should be easy to start removing the ones that don't apply to me.

I don't think that's useful either. The thread is about nationalized health care so by virtue of the topic we're only interested in average information. The idea is to weigh the costs vs the benefit, that is, how much total revenue a country using nationalized health care takes from its citizens vs what you get for it medically, so you need typical information. Then, theoretically, you have some predictive power. So in this case, how much total tax does the Canadian government take from a guy making an average salary? Well you go out and (do what Fraser Inst. did) pole a bunch of people and average income tax, all the lottery tickets, the smokes, the telephone taxes(check your bill), the airline ticket taxes, the social security (US name) taxes, the sales tax (did you buy a car?, a condo?), etc., everything the federal government takes in as revenue since it all goes into one pot in effect. In this case looks to me like its 46%.

BTW, $10 for smokes!
 
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  • #97
mheslep said:
I don't think that's useful either. The thread is about nationalized health care so by virtue of the topic we're only interested in average information.
I was thinking more in terms of median and mode because each of them are not as strongly affected by outliers, so they give a better representation of distribution.

Let me give you an example. Numbers 1,2,3,4,5,100,100.
The median is 4, so if you divided it at 4 you could say "half of the people are below this point, half the people are above this point". Looking at the median, or quintiles, or percentile, gives a good idea of where things are. If you said "20% of people are below the poverty line" it actually means something; 2/10 randomly chosen people are poor. If you said something like "the poverty line is at $20,000 and the average income is $30,000" what exactly does that mean? How are the numbers distributed? How many people are poor? Unless you include a standard deviation, the mean is useless. The median is useful because it doesn't need a standard deviation.
In the above example, the mean is 30.7. This number means nothing. The number 30 is not part of that set, nor is anything even close to 30. Outliers such as bums and rich people can have a strong effect on the mean. They generally have less of an effect on the median since they just cancel each other out, so it's like you're not even including the outliers, assuming you have an equal number of outliers on each end.

Real world data relating to this: PPP by average, PPP by median

Averages:
USA ~$43,000 on both lists
Canada ~$35,000 on both lists

Medians:
USA ~ $48,000
Canada ~ $43,000

As you can see, the numbers change quite a bit when you look at the median instead of the average. It's also good to see that the median is higher than the average. This would indicate that the mean is low because of unemployed people; not because the bulk of the population is poor (this is good because we have low unemployment rates. If the unemployment was 50%, the median would be really screwed up, in which case the mode would be the best indicator, and it would say that unemployment was rampant). If the opposite were true, and each country had 100% employment with mostly low paying jobs and a few Warren Buffet jobs, the mean would be higher than the median. As always, correct me if these assumptions are wrong.In my previous post, I excluded the tax on cigarettes and alcohol because 1) they don't apply to most people and 2) they are voluntary. You are forced to pay income tax, but nobody forces you to smoke. You are forced to pay property tax (it's included in your rent if you're a renter), but nobody forces you to drink. A person representing the mean, median, and mode would be a nonsmoker who has a beer or glass of wine on rare occasions. If you're a smoker or an alcoholic, the statistics don't apply at all, so you have to include the full cost. I assume it sucks to be a smoking alcoholic in Canada.
The idea is to weigh the costs vs the benefit, that is, how much total revenue a country using nationalized health care takes from its citizens vs what you get for it medically, so you need typical information. Then, theoretically, you have some predictive power. So in this case, how much total tax does the Canadian government take from a guy making an average salary? Well you go out and (do what Fraser Inst. did) pole a bunch of people and average income tax, all the lottery tickets, the smokes, the telephone taxes(check your bill), the airline ticket taxes, the social security (US name) taxes, the sales tax (did you buy a car?, a condo?), etc., everything the federal government takes in as revenue since it all goes into one pot in effect. In this case looks to me like its 46%.
Yes, the average is 46% (the way they calculated it). What is the median? If you pointed at somebody who represents the bulk of the population, such as the middle 80% (exclude the top and bottom 10%), how much would that guy be paying? It's probably not 46%.

BTW, $10 for smokes!
Yeah, it sucks hard. This week it was also announced that there is a smoking ban in the entire province of Alberta. This officially makes smoking more illegal than drinking. You can drink at the bar until you pass out, but you better not light a cigarette! Those things kill you! :rolleyes:
What's funny about this is that the city of Edmonton, Alberta passed a smoking ban about 1 year ago. Take a guess where all the smokers went. They started going to the River Cree Casino which is located on native reserve land just west of the city. City laws don't apply to reserve land, so you could smoke as much as you wanted. My friends and I would go there all the time just to smoke, hang out, watch TV at the bar, and eat somewhat nice food. I don't even like smoking, so it was really more of a protest than anything else. Methinks the provincial ban is due to businesses complaining that indians are stealing all their business.
 
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  • #98
Universal health care is a basic human right - enshrined in most european countries. There are different models but most of them are successful. OK the taxes are higher in Europe but at the end of the day taxes belong to the people and not governments and if they are ploughed back into the public in the form of better public services, social security and pensions then the vast majority of people don't mind paying higher taxes. I work as a doctor in the UK and have on many occassions treated US visitors who absolutely marvel at our system! Most of it is evidenced based and is one of the most cost effective systems in the world! We may not be as good as Sweden, France or Germany but when it comes to the crunch - when it really matters - no system in the world can beat our National Health Service.
 
  • #99
gsingh1015 said:
Universal health care is a basic human right - enshrined in most european countries. There are different models but most of them are successful. OK the taxes are higher in Europe but at the end of the day taxes belong to the people and not governments and if they are ploughed back into the public in the form of better public services, social security and pensions then the vast majority of people don't mind paying higher taxes. I work as a doctor in the UK and have on many occassions treated US visitors who absolutely marvel at our system! Most of it is evidenced based and is one of the most cost effective systems in the world! We may not be as good as Sweden, France or Germany but when it comes to the crunch - when it really matters - no system in the world can beat our National Health Service.

What was the primary reason patients from the U.S came into be treated. I say this because a lot of Brits come to the U.S for Dental work, because their universal healthcare system does not do teeth very well.
 
  • #100
t-money said:
What was the primary reason patients from the U.S came into be treated. I say this because a lot of Brits come to the U.S for Dental work, because their universal healthcare system does not do teeth very well.

They were probably tourists.
 
  • #101
gsingh1015 said:
Universal health care is a basic human right - enshrined in most european countries.
Any argument for this or do you assert as an article of faith? What then are the basic human rights? How about food, education? University education? Employment? Housing? Telephone? Internet access? Transportation? I'll stick with Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, thank you.
There are different models but most of them are successful. OK the taxes are higher in Europe but at the end of the day taxes belong to the people and not governments and if they are ploughed back into the public in the form of better public services, social security and pensions then the vast majority of people don't mind paying higher taxes. I work as a doctor in the UK and have on many occassions treated US visitors who absolutely marvel at our system! Most of it is evidenced based and is one of the most cost effective systems in the world! We may not be as good as Sweden, France or Germany but when it comes to the crunch - when it really matters - no system in the world can beat our National Health Service.

By what standard or metric to you assert? To what degree do you credit pharmaceutical advances for NHS success? Care to express an opinion on these figures showing the US has the highest life expectancy in the world?
http://bp0.blogger.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/Rzmah0RKkiI/AAAAAAAACxM/_yTMErbhbmE/s1600-h/le1.bmp"
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/11/beyond-those-health-care-numbers-us.html"
Numbers on the right are corrected to remove homicides and accidents, i.e. non health care related deaths. US 76.9yrs
NY Times piece background piece by http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/mankiw/mankiw.html"
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/b...773f35bd&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss"
 
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  • #102
ShawnD said:
They were probably tourists.
Maybe, but a lot of Brits are voting with their feet and coming to the US to stay. The flow is definitely from the UK to the US.
 
  • #103
Why do Americans come here! Tourists? Visiting family? or may be just so that people can ask silly questions!
As to basic human rights - health has the same place as life and liberty along with education and a clean water supply. As to happiness - there can be no happiness if your child is dying in front of your eyes and you have no medical access because you can't pay the bills. But then you cannot explain such simple concepts to people who think a right to carry arms is more important than universal health care!
 
  • #104
Oh and by the way the British dental system is the one of the worse in the developed world - you know why? Because it largely private and not adequately supported by the health service! No wonder some people have to pull their own rotting teeth out because the dentists are too busy doing dental implants! May be its time to nationalise the dental services!
 
  • #105
gsingh1015 said:
Oh and by the way the British dental system is the one of the worse in the developed world - you know why? Because it largely private and not adequately supported by the health service! No wonder some people have to pull their own rotting teeth out because the dentists are too busy doing dental implants! May be its time to nationalise the dental services!
Why not nationalise everything?
 
  • #106
ShawnD said:
There's a lot of voluntary tax out there, and most of it doesn't apply to most people. Most people don't smoke, most people don't binge drink, and most people don't buy lottery tickets.

I agree. My point though, is that people generally pay a lot more in taxes than others think when you take into account all taxes. There's a large number of taxes that people can't get away from.

See the article I posted below. It's short (2 pages) and be sure to read the whole thing.

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/misc/Hogberg.pdf
 
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  • #107
gsingh1015 said:
Why do Americans come here! Tourists? Visiting family? or may be just so that people can ask silly questions!
As to basic human rights - health has the same place as life and liberty along with education and a clean water supply. As to happiness - there can be no happiness if your child is dying in front of your eyes and you have no medical access because you can't pay the bills. But then you cannot explain such simple concepts to people who think a right to carry arms is more important than universal health care!

Basically, in this situation, a parent probably qualifies for medical welfare and doesn't have to watch his child "die in front of your eyes" as you so dramatically put it. This is just emotionally based bologne. There is a system to help the poor in Americans in this situation.

Bills are just bills, when your childs life is on the line, bills don't have priority. Sell your assets, if you don't have any then you qualify for medical assistance. If you have to declare bankruptcy then cry me a river. Life goes on.
 
  • #108
drankin said:
Bills are just bills, when your childs life is on the line, bills don't have priority. Sell your assets, if you don't have any then you qualify for medical assistance. If you have to declare bankruptcy then cry me a river. Life goes on.

I know, as if bankrupcy was the worst thing in the world. Sometimes I don't think we realize how good we got it.
 
  • #109
Economist said:
I know, as if bankrupcy was the worst thing in the world. Sometimes I don't think we realize how good we got it.
IMHO a modern society should not allow its members to resort to declare bankruptcy if they are hit by accidents or illnesses that arise from factors which they can not control. As for those controllable factors, the government will have a better incentive to regulate those in the best interests of its citizens.
Over here social security levies a progressive health tax, and the citizen chooses a fund which will be paid that tax. The funds are NFPOs, and they offer unregulated added coverage at unregulated prices. The government regulates the basic coverage completely. It's not a perfect system though: the appointed committee that controlls what treatments are covered by the basic coverage is a subject of much heated discussions, but I suppose there has to be a place for the opposing forces of public interest in welfare and the free market to battle it out.
 
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  • #110
There are some examples that may be instructive regarding free market medicine vs 3rd party payer plans (either nationalized or insured)

The LASIK eye procedure is not covered by 3rd party insurers in the US. Since 1999 its price has gone down ~23%. In the same period the average cost of medicine (mostly insured) has increased ~35%. General price inflation over the same period ~20%. http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba572/"
 
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  • #111
Many good reasons to think things in europe can't work in America: euro cars suck, men do not wear purses, i have a baseball cap on my head not a fruit basket, guns are not illegal here, american beer is the best in the world and baseball.
You try telling me that some hunky-dory system of what nots and want nots is going to improve something and i'll show you the image of the christ child on the side of a roadside mile marker. These things take time and euro qualities, which we do not have. We have hundreds of thousands of thousands of sqaure MILES, not km, of land. Everything here is bigger, like Texas. We do not have to give up our dreams of manifest destiny, the euro man's expidition into the wild ended at coming down from the tree, he has yet to take the next step into the land of greatness.
 
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  • #113
gsingh1015 said:
Why do Americans come here! Tourists? Visiting family? or may be just so that people can ask silly questions!
As to basic human rights - health has the same place as life and liberty along with education and a clean water supply. As to happiness - there can be no happiness if your child is dying in front of your eyes and you have no medical access because you can't pay the bills. But then you cannot explain such simple concepts to people who think a right to carry arms is more important than universal health care!

Healthcare is not a right. It is a service. It is something that requires the skills of other people to provide. As such, it cannot ever be a right. If you make healthcare a "right," you are essentially infringing on the rights of the people who study hard for years to acquire the skills to be able to provide healthcare. No one is entitled to those services.

Education is the same. And food. And housing. All are services. Not rights. If you want those services, you have to pay for them.

Rights are things like the 2nd Amendment, which states you have a right to bear arms to protect yourself. It doesn't at all say the government is supposed to supply you with a weapon. That's on you to acquire it. Or the freedom to practice whatever religion you want. The government is not obligated to build you a church/mosque/temple, etc...things like healthcare, education, food, housing, etc...cannot be rights, because they require the skills of others.

Societies that consider these things rights are always less prosperous than more free-market systems, which is why countries like America and Switzerland have the highest standard of living in the world.

Regarding the drug and insurance companies, there is a huge misconception that these are oligopolies because of the free market, which is blatantly not true. The reason they are oligopolies is BECAUSE of government intervention, not the lack of it.

For example, the drug industry. You know what the requirement is to start a drug company? You'd need to create a new drug which is an effort unto itself, then it would have to pass through the FDA, thus costing you a couple of hundred million dollars and a ten to fifteen year wait.

Well obviously that kind of cuts out 99.99999999999999999999% of the population from starting any new drug companies. Thus the drug companies gain an oligopoly, and become very large and powerful. The barrier to entry in the drug industry regarding starting your own drug company is thus a good deal caused by government.

Contrast this with the computer/software industry which is incredibly free and unregulate, with very low barriers to entry. Thus you have constant startups forming in the industry, and incredible growth in the industry.

The FDA itself through it's stringent regulation also seriously hamstrings our drug industry because of that ten to fifteen year wait. We would be much better with an abolished FDA and having competing private agencies that could do the testing, and drugs available to people who want to use them before the testing if they want to run that risk.

More people die each year from drugs that don't make it to the market than are saved from ones that do. If these drugs could come to market, and then were undergoing testing by competing private agencies, then people could wait for them to be certified safe, but people more desperate (say going to die soon if they don't try something) could try the drug. It would be their choice.

Sort of like when the FDA announces a new drug that they estimate will save 14,000 people a year, well no one thinks that means 14,000 people died for each of the ten to fifteen years the drug had to go through FDA testing. That number could've been greatly reduced had the drug been released.

The drug companies, the insurance companies, Medicare, Medicaid, etc...all are stringently regulated. And now individual doctor's practices are being taken over by government as well or regulated out of existence. Medicare alone has like 133,000 pages of regulation.

All this regulation of the industry was originally meant to "protect" us consumers, but it does exactly the opposite.

I don't trust my healthcare to a big corporation with little competition or the government, I trust my own private doctors with it. For over 100 years in America, our medical care system was simple: if you needed a doctor, you went to one and paid for their services. But somewhere along the line government had to step in and complicate things greatly.

The U.S. healthcare system is messed-up because of the intervention of government, not because of free-market policies.
 
  • #114
WheelsRCool said:
Healthcare is not a right. It is a service. It is something that requires the skills of other people to provide. As such, it cannot ever be a right. If you make healthcare a "right," you are essentially infringing on the rights of the people who study hard for years to acquire the skills to be able to provide healthcare. No one is entitled to those services.

Education is the same. And food. And housing. All are services. Not rights. If you want those services, you have to pay for them.

Rights are things like the 2nd Amendment, which states you have a right to bear arms to protect yourself. It doesn't at all say the government is supposed to supply you with a weapon. That's on you to acquire it. Or the freedom to practice whatever religion you want. The government is not obligated to build you a church/mosque/temple, etc...things like healthcare, education, food, housing, etc...cannot be rights, because they require the skills of others.

Societies that consider these things rights are always less prosperous than more free-market systems, which is why countries like America and Switzerland have the highest standard of living in the world.

Regarding the drug and insurance companies, there is a huge misconception that these are oligopolies because of the free market, which is blatantly not true. The reason they are oligopolies is BECAUSE of government intervention, not the lack of it.

For example, the drug industry. You know what the requirement is to start a drug company? You'd need to create a new drug which is an effort unto itself, then it would have to pass through the FDA, thus costing you a couple of hundred million dollars and a ten to fifteen year wait.

Well obviously that kind of cuts out 99.99999999999999999999% of the population from starting any new drug companies. Thus the drug companies gain an oligopoly, and become very large and powerful. The barrier to entry in the drug industry regarding starting your own drug company is thus a good deal caused by government.

Contrast this with the computer/software industry which is incredibly free and unregulate, with very low barriers to entry. Thus you have constant startups forming in the industry, and incredible growth in the industry.

The FDA itself through it's stringent regulation also seriously hamstrings our drug industry because of that ten to fifteen year wait. We would be much better with an abolished FDA and having competing private agencies that could do the testing, and drugs available to people who want to use them before the testing if they want to run that risk.

More people die each year from drugs that don't make it to the market than are saved from ones that do. If these drugs could come to market, and then were undergoing testing by competing private agencies, then people could wait for them to be certified safe, but people more desperate (say going to die soon if they don't try something) could try the drug. It would be their choice.

Sort of like when the FDA announces a new drug that they estimate will save 14,000 people a year, well no one thinks that means 14,000 people died for each of the ten to fifteen years the drug had to go through FDA testing. That number could've been greatly reduced had the drug been released.

The drug companies, the insurance companies, Medicare, Medicaid, etc...all are stringently regulated. And now individual doctor's practices are being taken over by government as well or regulated out of existence. Medicare alone has like 133,000 pages of regulation.

All this regulation of the industry was originally meant to "protect" us consumers, but it does exactly the opposite.

I don't trust my healthcare to a big corporation with little competition or the government, I trust my own private doctors with it. For over 100 years in America, our medical care system was simple: if you needed a doctor, you went to one and paid for their services. But somewhere along the line government had to step in and complicate things greatly.

The U.S. healthcare system is messed-up because of the intervention of government, not because of free-market policies.

Excellent examples.
 
  • #115
Great points WheelsRCool! I especially like the part about rights, because I totally agree. I always get so frustrated when I hear people through the term "right" around. They don't understand that a right is something that all people can have simultaneously, without it infringing upon the rights of someone else. For example, we can all have the right to free speech simultaneously, however, that doesn't mean anyone else has to listen or provide me with a mic and a podium. Also, when you talked about starting up a pharmaceutical company, I actually heard that it takes the average drug $1 billion and ten years of testing to get it passed (which (just like you said) CREATES AN OLIGOPOLY!)

I just wanted to add a few more short interesting articles for the debate.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/09/opinion/09krugman.html?hp
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=112007D
 
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  • #116
Plastic Photon said:
american beer is the best in the world

Well, the rest may be true, but the beer is better in Germany.
 
  • #117
WheelsRCool said:
Societies that consider these things rights are always less prosperous than more free-market systems, which is why countries like America and Switzerland have the highest standard of living in the world.
You may not want to group America and Switzerland together. They're so drastically different that it's like comparing China to Nigeria (except China and Nigeria both suck).
Here is an example: http://www.taxation.ch/index.cfm/fuseaction/show/temp/default/path/1-534.htm
Higher up on the page you see this:
The maximum federal income tax rate is 11.5%
:biggrin:

Lower down you see this
Lump-sum taxation ("forfait tax") of resident aliens
...
"Ordinary Swiss income taxes per year CHF 300’000 (40%)
Alright so pure-blood Swiss people pay 11.5% while the scum from other countries pay 40%. I'm pretty sure America doesn't do that.
Switzerland is also listed as a country that has universal health care
Then there's 20% of switzerland is immigrants (they pay 40%, remember).
On that same page, the one that really strikes me as odd is where it says "Some of my clients have been surprised to find that children in Switzerland are openly friendly towards adults" which is the exact opposite of the American/Canadian teaching of "everybody older than you is automatically evil and you should not talk to them, ever"

It's an interesting country, and I think we can all learn a lot from it, but it's hard to make direct comparison. Everything seems different, so it's hard to pick the ones that are good and the ones that are bad, if any of them are bad, which I don't even know.



I agree on your FDA rant though. There's a theory out there that collusion is more likely to happen when the cost to get into an industry is high, so oil companies are pharm companies can pretty much do whatever the hell they want and nobody can stop them. Jon Stossel gave a really good speech about this at the Frasier Institue. It's on google video if you care to search for it.
 
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  • #118
ShawnD said:
It's an interesting country, and I think we can all learn a lot from it, but it's hard to make direct comparison. Everything seems different, so it's hard to pick the ones that are good and the ones that are bad, if any of them are bad, which I don't even know.

Yes interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland" where every citizen owns a gun and, if the authorities come to your house and demand to see your gun and you do NOT have it, they arrest you.:approve:
 
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  • #119
ShawnD, thanks for the info. I don't know the full details, but I think that, with regards to the other European nations that are known for high taxation though, that the Swiss still tax far less. I have read that France for example has had a lot of its celebrities moving to Switzerland to avoid paying French taxes, which has caused France to actually go so far as to threaten Switzerland (economically, not militarily :) ) to which the Swiss have essentially told them to get lost, this is like an on-going thing I believe.

Regarding Swiss healthcare, it is universal I believe, but it isn't for the most part publicly-funded, it is a combination of a publicly-funded system (University of Geneva), subsized private, and totally private systems (private doctors and medical practices). I think though that it is law that all citizens have to buy insurance.

Regarding guns in Switzerland, I think America has those same kinds of laws if you own fully automatic belt-fed machine guns :) you have to keep them in a secured spot and the authorities will tend to check on you and them constantly, and if they demand to see them and you don't have them, not good!

Overall, regarding Switzerland and the U.S., I meant the two are similar in that the central governments both have little power in their economies in comparison to the governments of other countries, both have high gun ownership, and both have the best healthcare in the world, and both tend to be very free-market friendly.
 
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  • #120
WheelsRCool said:
Regarding guns in Switzerland, I think America has those same kinds of laws if you own fully automatic belt-fed machine guns :) you have to keep them in a secured spot and the authorities will tend to check on you and them constantly, and if they demand to see them and you don't have them, not good!
You are badly misinformed. In the US, if you own a firearm that can fire continuously while the trigger is depressed, you have to have purchased a class 3 license before taking possession of it, and you have to keep that permit current and pay fees, and you have to notify the ATF when you want to transport that gun to a location not specified on your permit. Practically identical weapons which have to be fired with individual trigger-pulls used to be exempted until a bunch of nuts pushed through laws forbidding things like flash-suppressors, folding stocks, and other features that might might make the semi-automatic rifles "look" like the full-auto military guns.

Switzerland's laws are structured more toward the maintenance of a citizen militia, in which an invasion/incursion can be countered with well-armed quick-reaction forces. I would NOT want to attempt a home invasion of a Swiss home for any reason.
 

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