Solving an Impossible Problem - Frictionless Train Car??

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The discussion centers around a thought experiment involving a train car on a frictionless track filled with an inviscid fluid, with a nozzle at one end allowing water to drip straight down. Participants explore the implications of momentum conservation as water exits the nozzle, questioning how the train's motion is affected. Key points include the idea that the train must move to the left to maintain the center of mass as water drips out, and that the flow rate of the fluid is crucial for understanding the dynamics involved. The conversation also touches on the complexities of fluid behavior and the challenges of predicting the train's movement after the water exits. Ultimately, the problem remains unresolved, highlighting the intricacies of fluid dynamics and momentum conservation.
  • #31
The first several answers there violate conservation of momentum. Assuming a continuous (but not necessarily constant) fluid flow through a hole to the right of the center of mass, the train does move to the left initially but the final velocity of the train is necessarily to the right.
 
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  • #32
D H said:
The first several answers there violate conservation of momentum. Assuming a continuous (but not necessarily constant) fluid flow through a hole to the right of the center of mass, the train does move to the left initially but the final velocity of the train is necessarily to the right.

That's fascinating... any hints as to why? I'm trying to think of the reason...
 
  • #33
I am concerned about the idea that a train can propel itself along a frictionless track, starting from rest.

These are the stated conditions.

Since the train starts from rest it posesses zero inital momentum.
 
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  • #34
Chewy0087 said:
That's fascinating... any hints as to why? I'm trying to think of the reason...
First off, it should be obvious that if at the end everything is moving to the left we have indeed violated conservation of momentum. At the end, if the bulk of the exhausted fluid is moving to the left, the car can only be moving to the right. So how to get there?The discussion so far has focused on the train car and its contents. What about the liquid that has left the train car? It helps to make the train car + liquid a horizontally-isolated system. One way to do this is to have the liquid leaving the car fall through the rails onto a frictionless surface situated well beneath the rails. With this construction, the train car + liquid system does not interact horizontally with the environment. Moreover, because the surface onto which the liquid falls is well beneath the rails, the train car does not interact with the liquid once it leaves the car.

The momentum of the fluid that has left the car between time t=0 when the flow first starts to time t and the momentum of the car plus its fluid contents are given by

\aligned<br /> \vec p_{\mbox{ex}} &amp;= \int_0^t \dot m(\tau)\vec v(\tau)\, d\tau \\[4pt]<br /> \vec p_{\mbox{car}} &amp;= (M+m_f(t))\vec v(t) + \vec p_{\mbox{flow}}<br /> \endaligned

where
  • \vec p_{\mbox{ex}} is the momentum of the fluid that has left the car from the persective of an inertial observer,
  • \vec p_{\mbox{car}} is the momentum of the car plus its fluid contents from the persective of this inertial observer,
  • \vec p_{\mbox{flow}} is the horizontal momentum of fluid flow inside the car from the persective of an observer fixed with respect to the car,
  • \dot m(t) is the (positive) rate at which mass flowing from the car at time t,
  • \vec v(t) is the velocity of the car at time t,
  • M is the (empty) mass of the car, and
  • m_f(t) is the mass of the fluid contents of the car.

In steady-state flow conditions, the horizontal momentum flow of the fluid inside the car is given by

\vec p_{\mbox{flow}} = \dot m(t) \vec o

where \vec o is the horizontal component of the vector from the center of the tank to the outlet.

To conserve mass and to conserve horizontal momentum, we must have

\aligned<br /> dm_f(t)/dt &amp;= -\dot m \\[4pt]<br /> \vec p_{\mbox{car}} &amp;= -\vec p_{\mbox{ex}}<br /> \endaligned

Let's start simple: constant flow rate, no transients, and we'll close the outlet valve before all the fluid has left the tank. In this case, while the fluid is flowing from the car, the car will have a constant velocity given by

\vec v = -\frac{\dot m}{M+m_0}\vec o

where m_0 is the initial mass of the fluid content of the car. By ignoring transients we have given the car an impulsive change in momentum of

\delta p_0 = -\dot m \vec o

at time t=0. How does this arise? It arises from the transients that we have so conveniently ignored. It takes a bit of time for the fluid flow to build up inside the car. There is a transfer of momentum from the car itself to the fluid within the car.

When we close the value (remember that there is still fluid in the car) we will get a reversal of this momentum transfer. The initial and final changes in momentum of the car+contents subsystem have the same magnitudes but opposite directions. However, the car+contents subsystem has lost mass in the interim. The final change in velocity is greater than the initial change in velocity: The vehicle ends up moving to the right.

Now let's make the vehicle drain under its own pressure, and keep draining until it is completely empty. We'll get a similar startup transient as above. Now the momentum flow of the liquid within the car is no longer constant. It is instead decreasing in magnitude as fluid drains from the car. This means momentum is being transferred from the fluid to the car, and this transfer is toward the right. This will make the car slow down, come to a momentary stop, and then start moving to the right.
 
  • #35

That is a really great problem, and answer, thank you very much sir!
 
  • #36
Studiot said:
I am concerned about the idea that a train can propel itself along a frictionless track, starting from rest.

These are the stated conditions.

Since the train starts from rest it posesses zero inital momentum.
Since we started with the train and its contents initially at rest, the net horizontal momentum of the train + fluid contents + exhausted contents system must be identically zero at all times. When the outlet valve is opened there is a horizontal momentum flow inside the train due to the off-center location of the outlet. Something else must necessarily be moving in the opposite direction of this flow inside the vehicle to keep the net horizontal momentum to zero. The only other thing that can be moving is the train. Ergo, the train must somehow start moving.

How? This system has been constructed so that horizontal linear momentum will be a conserved quantity. One of the beauties of looking at a problem from the perspective of the conservation laws is that the detailed physical mechanisms that enable the conserved quantities to be conserved are irrelevant details.
 
  • #37
RE: Analysis summary by DH.

Yes I had got the same result, and posted it but cut the latter part.

It is always possible to frame a question in such a way as to provide an impossible scenario that cannot satisfy all laws and conditions at once.

I am just wondering whether this has happened in this case by specifying rolling stock and no friction.

One can, for instance, consider weights sliding on frictionless surfaces being pulled by tensioned strings passing over pulleys so that the acceleration of gravity is applied through the string tension.

If the fluid is allowed to rotate then I can see how that could convert the vertical acceleration of the discarded fluid into horizontal acceleration of the remainder, but I don't have a mechanism for converting this to horizontal motion of the train.
 
  • #38
D H said:
Since we started with the train and its contents initially at rest, the net horizontal momentum of the train + fluid contents + exhausted contents system must be identically zero at all times. When the outlet valve is opened there is a horizontal momentum flow inside the train due to the off-center location of the outlet. Something else must necessarily be moving in the opposite direction of this flow inside the vehicle to keep the net horizontal momentum to zero. The only other thing that can be moving is the train. Ergo, the train must somehow start moving.

How? This system has been constructed so that horizontal linear momentum will be a conserved quantity. One of the beauties of looking at a problem from the perspective of the conservation laws is that the detailed physical mechanisms that enable the conserved quantities to be conserved are irrelevant details.

Not irrelevant because that's the whole point of this problem. I wasn't questioning the momentum law, its just that the end result of the train car (as dictated by the physical laws) seems impossible or illogical when I try to imagine any mechanism that could make it work. Train car must go to the left while the liquid drips (at a decent velocity) then it must suddenly move to the right when the water stops draining, which is weird to think about.
 
  • #39
Not quite, the idea that the rightward motion begins due to the shutting off of the valve is only correct if the flow is shut off relatively early on. I believe D H alluded to this also-- the rightward motion of the train car can appear even before the fluid ceases to drain, if it drains long enough before you stop it (or if you let it drain completely).

We can see this most easily by taking the limit as the mass of the train car itself goes to zero, and letting the fluid completely drain from the massless train. In that case, there is no amount of final rightward motion of the train that could compensate for the leftward velocity of the fluid that has rained out, so it is clear that the fluid itself must have both leftward and rightward velocity-- the train must reverse direction before the fluid runs out. Indeed, for a massless train, it seems likely that the train car reverses direction at the halfway point of the draining process, and the velocity of the fluid that comes out is antisymmetric about that mid time.

Of course that will not just be true for a massless train, for we can imagine gradually adding mass to the train, and we will always require there be fluid moving both to the left (the early drained contents) and to the right (the later drained contents). The exact proportion will depend on the mass of the train relative to the mass of the fluid.

The main issue with this surprising result seems to be how to explain it in terms of microscopic forces. The fluid must leave the train at the train speed (that's the natural faucet condition here, others are assuming that too), so the rightward flow within the train is always getting stopped, relative to the train, before the fluid comes out. That's a force continuously acting to the right on the train, following the initial transient that set up the flow, so that is the force that turns the train around after it has been moving to the left for awhile. It simply comes from the requirement that the flow not leave the train with a relative velocity to the train, even though it needed a relative velocity to get to the hole. Shutting off the faucet stops the internal flow, so it comes with a force to the right as well, but a version of that same force is already present even when the hole is open.
 
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  • #40
Curl said:
Not irrelevant because that's the whole point of this problem. I wasn't questioning the momentum law, its just that the end result of the train car (as dictated by the physical laws) seems impossible or illogical when I try to imagine any mechanism that could make it work. Train car must go to the left while the liquid drips (at a decent velocity) then it must suddenly move to the right when the water stops draining, which is weird to think about.

Why would it suddenly move right? Looks to me like it would keep moving but experience no more acceleration.
 
  • #41
If there's a net flow component to the right within the train, then the fluid is being decelerated (relative to the train) as it flows out the nozzle. Otherwise the exiting fluid would have the same net component of velocity to the right as the fluid within the train. So at the nozzle, the train's nozzle exerts a leftwards force onto the exiting fluid, coexistant with the fluid exerting a rightwards force onto the train's nozzle. I'm not sure how that tiny force translates into the train car ultimately moving to the right, or maybe oscillating side to side as the fluid exits, assuming the nozzle always keeps the exiting fluid's horitzontal component of speed the same as the train at any moment.
 
  • #42
Curl said:
Not irrelevant because that's the whole point of this problem.
To some extent it most certainly is irrelevant. Learning to pick the right level of abstraction to solve some problem is an important aspect of applied physics. If you want a detailed explanation you will need to develop a Navier-Stokes-based CFD model for this system. Have at it!

Lacking a detail explanation such as that produced by a CFD model, one is reduced to somewhat hand-wavy arguments. I gave two such arguments at the end of post #34, one for a constant flow and another for a pressure-driven flow.

In the constant flow case the train starts moving because of a transient-driven transfer of momentum between the train and the fluid inside the train. An equal but opposite transfer of momentum occurs when the flow stops. Because the train+contents is lighter at the end than it is at the start, the change in velocity will be greater at the end than at the start. The final result is that the train is moving to the right.

In the pressure-driven flow case, the train accelerates to the right as soon as the initial transients that cause the initial leftward motion die out. Assuming that, except for these initial transients, the horizontal flow inside the train is given by

\vec p_{\mbox{flow}} = -\dot m(t) \vec o

then the acceleration of the train car will be given by

\dot{\vec v}(t) = -\,\frac{\ddot m(t)}{M+m_f(t)} \vec o

See post #34 for a description of the above terms.

In the pressure-driven flow, the flow rate is a function of the quantity of the fluid remaining in the tank: The flow rate decreases as time progresses. The acceleration is thus to the right. The car will have a rightward velocity prior to the where the car is void of contents.
 

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