Solving Nonlinear ODE: magnetism with varying particle charge

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around solving a set of nonlinear ordinary differential equations (ODEs) related to the motion of a charged particle in a magnetic field, where the charge of the particle varies with time. Participants explore different methods for solving the equations, including differentiating to form a second-order system and using hyperbolic functions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a set of ODEs and seeks help on the correctness of their approach, questioning whether inspired guessing is appropriate.
  • Another participant suggests a correction to the differentiation step, indicating a potential error in the formulation of the equations.
  • Some participants propose that the system should remain as a first-order linear system rather than converting it to a second-order system, arguing that this approach is generally more effective.
  • One participant introduces a method involving the use of hyperbolic functions to express the solutions, suggesting a specific form for the velocity components.
  • There is mention of a "brute force" method from a classical mechanics textbook that involves differentiating to increase the order of the system, but it is noted that this may only simplify cases with constant coefficients.
  • Another participant emphasizes the need to specify initial velocities alongside the initial position of the particle.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the best method to solve the ODEs, with some advocating for maintaining the first-order system and others supporting the differentiation approach. There is no consensus on the correctness of the initial formulations or the most effective solution strategy.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the equations may not be nonlinear and that the solution methods depend on the specific form of the function q(t). There are unresolved aspects regarding the initial conditions and the implications of varying charge on the system's dynamics.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and researchers interested in nonlinear dynamics, classical mechanics, and the behavior of charged particles in magnetic fields, particularly those exploring various solution techniques for ODEs.

Eloise
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
Hello.

I have a set of ODE where
1) [tex]\frac{dv_x}{dt}=\frac{q(t)B}{m}v_y[/tex]
2) [tex]\frac{dv_y}{dt}=\frac{q(t)B}{m}v_x[/tex]
3) [tex]\frac{dv_z}{dt}=0[/tex]

Following the strategy to solve a simple harmonic oscillator,
I differentiate (1) to get
4) [tex]\frac{d^2v_x}{dt^2}=\frac{q(t)B}{m}\frac{dv_y}{dt}+q'(t)v_y[/tex]

and substitute (1) and (2) into it to get
5) [tex]\frac{d^2v_x}{dt^2}=(\frac{q(t)B}{m})^2v_x+\frac{q'(t)}{q(t)}\frac{dv_x}{dt}[/tex]

which involve only functions of [itex]t[/itex] and [itex]x[/itex].
The initial position of the particle is at the origin.
I do not know if this is the correct way. I should solve it by inspired guessing?

Can you please help me by giving me some tips on solving this?
Thank you very much.
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
Eloise said:
I differentiate (1) to get
4) [tex]\frac{d^2v_x}{dt^2}=\frac{q(t)B}{m}\frac{dv_y}{dt}+q'(t)v_y[/tex]
¨
Shouldn't that be ##\frac{d^2v_x}{dt^2}=\frac{q(t)B}{m}\frac{dv_y}{dt}+\frac{q'(t)B}{m}v_y##? Otherwise your method is correct, but you have to know the function ##q(t)## to solve the equation. The equation is not nonlinear, by the way.
 
Eloise said:
Hello.

I have a set of ODE where
1) [tex]\frac{dv_x}{dt}=\frac{q(t)B}{m}v_y[/tex]
2) [tex]\frac{dv_y}{dt}=\frac{q(t)B}{m}v_x[/tex]
3) [tex]\frac{dv_z}{dt}=0[/tex]

I think, starting from
[tex] m\frac{d\vec v}{dt} = q(t)(\vec v \times \vec B)[/tex]
with [itex]\vec B = (0, 0, B)[/itex], that you should have a minus sign on the right hand side of (2) above.

Following the strategy to solve a simple harmonic oscillator,
I differentiate (1) to get
4) [tex]\frac{d^2v_x}{dt^2}=\frac{q(t)B}{m}\frac{dv_y}{dt}+q'(t)v_y[/tex]

and substitute (1) and (2) into it to get
5) [tex]\frac{d^2v_x}{dt^2}=(\frac{q(t)B}{m})^2v_x+\frac{q'(t)}{q(t)}\frac{dv_x}{dt}[/tex]

I don't think that helps you here.

I do not know if this is the correct way. I should solve it by inspired guessing?

Can you please help me by giving me some tips on solving this?
Thank you very much.

It's generally best to keep a first order linear system (which yours is) as a first order system rather than turn it into a second order system.

Your system is essentially
[tex] \frac{dv_x}{dt} = f(t)v_y \\<br /> \frac{dv_y}{dt} = f(t)v_x[/tex]
Now if you set [itex]u_1 = v_x + v_y[/itex] and [itex]u_2 = v_x- v_y[/itex] then you have
[tex] \frac{du_1}{dt} = f(t)u_1 \\<br /> \frac{du_2}{dt} = -f(t)u_2[/tex]
and those first-order equations are separable and can be solved.

Alternatively, you can make the inspired guess that
[tex] v_x(t) = v_x(0) \cosh(F(t)) + v_y(0) \sinh(F(t)), \\<br /> v_y(t) = v_y(0) \cosh(F(t)) + v_x(0) \sinh(F(t)).[/tex]
for a suitable [itex]F(t)[/itex] with [itex]F(0) = 0[/itex], which is prompted by the observation that
[tex] \frac{d}{dt} \cosh(t) = \sinh (t), \\<br /> \frac{d}{dt} \sinh(t) = \cosh (t)[/tex]
so that if
[tex] P(t) = C \cosh(t) + D \sinh(t) \\<br /> Q(t) = D \cosh(t) + C \sinh(t)[/tex]
then
[tex] \frac{dP}{dt} = Q \\<br /> \frac{dQ}{dt} = P[/tex]
which is almost your system, but to get the factor of [itex]f(t)[/itex] on the right of each equation we have to exploit the chain rule and instead set
[tex] P(t) = C \cosh(F(t)) + D \sinh(F(t)) \\<br /> Q(t) =D \cosh(F(t)) + C \sinh(F(t))[/tex]
so that now
[tex] \frac{dP}{dt} = F'(t)Q \\<br /> \frac{dQ}{dt} = F'(t)P[/tex]
which is your system. Only [itex]F'[/itex] is forced on us, so we can choose [itex]F(0)[/itex] to be whatever we want, and the choice [itex]F(0) = 0[/itex] is convenient, since then [itex]P(0) = C[/itex] and [itex]Q(0) = D[/itex].


The initial position of the particle is at the origin.

I assume [itex]v_x[/itex] and [itex]v_y[/itex] are components of velocity, so you need to specify an initial velocity as well.
 
pasmith said:
It's generally best to keep a first order linear system (which yours is) as a first order system rather than turn it into a second order system.

Actually, in my classical mechanics textbook, the trajectory of a charged particle in constant magnetic field is solved in that fashion (differentiating to increase the order of the system). That's the "brute force" method to solve the problem.
 
hilbert2 said:
Actually, in my classical mechanics textbook, the trajectory of a charged particle in constant magnetic field is solved in that fashion (differentiating to increase the order of the system). That's the "brute force" method to solve the problem.

And it makes things easier only in the constant-coefficient case, which is not this case.
 
Thank you very much. I didn't thought of using hyperbolic functions. Thanks again for helping.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K