Solving Rational Dependence in Vector Spaces

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the measure of the set of vectors in R^k that are rationally dependent (RD). Participants explore the implications of rational dependence, particularly in relation to the density of rational vectors and the measure of sets of vectors that are perpendicular to given vectors.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that every 3-tuple of rational entries is rationally dependent, providing a specific example to illustrate this.
  • Others argue that the question should focus on whether the set of RD vectors has nonzero measure in R^k, noting that while rational vectors are dense, they have measure zero.
  • A participant suggests that for a vector to be rationally independent (RID), it may require k-1 components to be irrational, expressing uncertainty about quantifying the measure of RD sets.
  • Some participants discuss the measure of sets of vectors that are perpendicular to a given vector, questioning whether the set of RD vectors is measurable and how this relates to countable unions of measure zero sets.
  • There is a challenge regarding the assumption of only considering countable unions, with a suggestion that uncountably many vectors exist in R^n.
  • A later reply indicates that the previous arguments about measure and rational dependence are indeed valid and not modified, confirming the reasoning presented.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion contains multiple competing views regarding the measure of RD vectors and whether they can be considered measurable. There is no consensus on the exact nature of these sets or their measures.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the definitions and implications of rational dependence and independence, as well as the measure of associated sets. The discussion reflects a need for clarity on these mathematical concepts.

bndnchrs
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Hi guys:

I've got a problem I've been working on for some weeks and this might be the key to unlocking it.

The question is:

Given a vector in R^k, what is the measure of the set of vectors whose components are rationally dependent?

Rationally dependent means for a given vector, you may find a vector with rational coefficients such that their inner product is 0.

(1/2,1/3,1/6) is RD because of (2,3,-12), for example.
 
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(1/2,1/3,1/6) is RD because of (2,3,-12), for example.
But this is easily generalized: every 3-tuple (p,q,r) with rational entries p,q,r is RD because
[tex](p,q,r)\cdot (1/p,1/q,-2/r)=0[/tex]
and 1/p,1/q,-2/r are rational. This is then easily generalized to R^n instead of R^3. Hence the set of RD vectors contains then ones with rational entries. But the latter one is already dense in R^n.
 
I suppose it was late, and this meant I had to improperly state the question!

Really, the question is does the set of RD vectors have nonzero measure over R^k, not whether they are dense or not. Of course the rationals are rationally dependent and dense, but they are a set of measure zero in R. So then the issue is whether a.a. collections of irrationals are RD, and my intuition says no.

So RID vectors requires k-1 components to be irrational. I don't have a hold on determining exactly "how much" of these sets are RD.
 
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I think I understand the statement, but I'm not totally sure. I suppose that you mean what is the measure of the set of all vectors which are rationally dependent (if this is even measurable)? I've never heard of rationally dependent before...

I think this is the answer:
Suppose [itex]r\in\mathbb{R}^n[/itex]. Note that the measure of the set of all vectors perpendicular to [itex]r[/itex] is zero. Now, what is the measure of a countable union of sets of measure zero?

Does that help?
 
tmccullough said:
I think I understand the statement, but I'm not totally sure. I suppose that you mean what is the measure of the set of all vectors which are rationally dependent (if this is even measurable)? I've never heard of rationally dependent before...

I think this is the answer:
Suppose [itex]r\in\mathbb{R}^n[/itex]. Note that the measure of the set of all vectors perpendicular to [itex]r[/itex] is zero. Now, what is the measure of a countable union of sets of measure zero?

Does that help?

I don't see why you're only taking a countable union. There are certainly uncountably many vectors in Rn.A modified argument seems to work though. Pick a vector with rational components q in Qn. Any rationally dependent vector is perpendicular to some such q, so lies in one of countably many measure zero sets
 
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That's not modified at all, that is the argument. I didn't want to give everything away.
 
Much appreciated. I believe this solves my question.

Don't worry about revealing the "proof", I would say that this problem is just a redefinition of a small mechanism in a larger problem, which has nothing to do with linear algebra, actually, so letting me in on the mechanism is of no great detriment to my progress.

Thank you both!
 

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