I Speed of individual photons in a vacuum?

LarryS
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Does speed of individual photons in a vacuum vary?
Is there experimental evidence that confirms that the speed of individual photons in a vacuum never varies, even slightly?

Thanks in advance.
 
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LarryS said:
Summary: Does speed of individual photons in a vacuum vary?

Is there experimental evidence that confirms that the speed of individual photons in a vacuum never varies, even slightly?

Thanks in advance.
I cannot think of how that could be tested even in principle.
 
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LarryS said:
never
Never? Never ever? Not even when we aren't measuring it?

LarryS said:
even slightly
Even below the ability to measure?

By those requirements, I couldn't even prove reindeer can't fly.
 
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Alright, maybe "never" or "slightly" were not the best choice of words.

But, are you aware of any experiments to measure the speed of individual photons?
 
LarryS said:
Summary: Does speed of individual photons in a vacuum vary?

Is there experimental evidence that confirms that the speed of individual photons in a vacuum never varies, even slightly?

Thanks in advance.
There is something here on cosmological theories that involve a varying speed of light:

https://cds.cern.ch/record/618057/files/0305457.pdf
 
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LarryS said:
are you aware of any experiments to measure the speed of individual photons?
Individual photons don't even have a well-defined "speed" in the first place. Strictly speaking, no quantum particles do, but for quantum particles like electrons, with nonzero rest mass, you can reasonably define a Hermitian "velocity operator" that you can physically realize, at least to a reasonable approximation, in a measurement. But no such operator can be defined for a photon, or for any massless particle, so there is no way to even define what you mean by the "speed" of a photon.
 
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First, even revised, the scenario is goofy. Are you telling me that the speed of photons depends on how many there are nearby?

Second, one can measure the speed of gammas from individual nuclear disintegrations, and it's c. Is it known to be c to a zillion decimal places? Nope. Certainly to a percent, perhaps better. You can do something similar with accelerator based experiments.
 
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PeterDonis said:
Individual photons don't even have a well-defined "speed" in the first place. Strictly speaking, no quantum particles do, but for quantum particles like electrons, with nonzero rest mass, you can reasonably define a Hermitian "velocity operator" that you can physically realize, at least to a reasonable approximation, in a measurement. But no such operator can be defined for a photon, or for any massless particle, so there is no way to even define what you mean by the "speed" of a photon.
very interesting. Then what do exactly scientists measure when they measure the speed of light? The average speed of a "collection" of photons?
 
Delta2 said:
what do exactly scientists measure when they measure the speed of light? The average speed of a "collection" of photons?
No. They measure the speed of a beam of light which the measurement does not even try to resolve into photons. This is not the same as the average speed of the photons in the light because such a thing is not even well-defined to begin with.
 
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  • #10
While I absolutely agree you can't say "out of the zillion photons", this one was here at time t1 and that one was there at time t2, you certainly can look at pulse speed vs. intensity. This is a hard measurement because of something called slewing, but is at least defined.

Or you could go to single, energetic photons as I discussed.

Or - and bnest of all - you can create a model where this speed varies and looks for an effect. Otherwise this kind of question degenerates quickly: "Ah, but was it ever done on a Thursday!", "Ah, but was it ever done facing Fresno?" "Ah, but was it ever done on Mars?"
 
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  • #11
Delta2 said:
Then what do exactly scientists measure when they measure the speed of light? The average speed of a "collection" of photons?
When we first hear about photons being light particles, our experience with small classical objects like grains of sand leads us to assume that a flash of light is a collection of photons the same way that a beach is a collection of grains of sand or a river is is a collection of water molecules moving along the riverbed. That's not how photons work and not what it means to say that photons are quanta of light.

When we measure the speed of light, we are measuring the speed at which classical electromagnetic waves propagate, and photons don't come into the analysis at all.
 
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  • #12
Nugatory said:
When we measure the speed of light, we are measuring the speed at which classical electromagnetic waves propagate, and photons don't come into the analysis at all.
Yes I was afraid this was the case, I see also @PeterDonis updated his answer, originally he had agreed with me.
 
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  • #13
Fast forward to 04:20
 
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  • #14
Delta2 said:
I see also @PeterDonis updated his answer, originally he had agreed with me.
No, I mistyped and hit Post by mistake before I could correct it, so I had to edit.
 
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  • #15
Question: Say our source of light is from a laser. I have read that the longitudinal position (same direction as the beam) of the photons is completely undefined/unknown. I assumed that was due to the HUP, that the longitudinal momentum of the photons was precisely defined. Is that correct?
 
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  • #16
LarryS said:
I have read
Where? Please give a reference.
 
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  • #17
PeterDonis said:
Where? Please give a reference.
I have also read (in Wikipedia I think) that the photon doesn't have a well defined position operator.
 
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  • #18
Delta2 said:
I have also read (in Wikipedia I think) that the photon doesn't have a well defined position operator.
That's not what post #15 says. Post #15 says the position is completely uncertain by the HUP because the momentum is precisely defined (i.e., the photon is in a momentum eigenstate). Such a statement only makes sense if the photon does have a well-defined position operator.
 
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  • #19
Delta2 said:
I have also read (in Wikipedia I think)
You've been here long enough to know that Wikipedia is not a valid reference.
 
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  • #20
PeterDonis said:
That's not what post #15 says. Post #15 says the position is completely uncertain by the HUP because the momentum is precisely defined (i.e., the photon is in a momentum eigenstate). Such a statement only makes sense if the photon does have a well-defined position operator.
Somehow I read post #15 in a "reverse" way. That the position of the photon is completely unknown, hence by HUP its momentum is precisely defined.
 
  • #21
Delta2 said:
Somehow I read post #15 in a "reverse" way. That the position of the photon is completely unknown, hence by HUP its momentum is precisely defined.
The HUP logic works fine either way, since "the position is completely unknown" and "the momentum is precisely defined" are logically equivalent by the HUP. You just failed to realize that "the position is completely unknown" is not the same thing as "the photon doesn't have a well-defined position operator".
 
  • #22
PeterDonis said:
You just failed to realize that "the position is completely unknown" is not the same thing as "the photon doesn't have a well-defined position operator".
Hmm if the photon doesn't have a well defined operator, then its position is completely unknown at all times at all cases. Right?

However the reverse doesn't necessarily hold. Right?
By reverse I mean that if for some cases, the position of a photon is completely unknown then this doesn't imply that the photon doesn't have a well defined position operator
 
  • #23
Delta2 said:
if the photon doesn't have a well defined operator, then its position is completely unknown at all times at all cases. Right?
Wrong. If the photon doesn't have a well-defined position operator, then the whole concept of "position" doesn't even make sense for it, not even to say that its position is completely unknown.

Delta2 said:
if for some cases, the position of a photon is completely unknown then this doesn't imply that the photon doesn't have a well defined position operator
For the statement "the position of a photon is completely unknown" to even make sense, the photon must have a well-defined position operator.

In short: without a well-defined position operator, you can't even apply the position-momentum HUP to a quantum system.
 
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  • #24
Delta2 said:
Somehow I read post #15 in a "reverse" way. That the position of the photon is completely unknown, hence by HUP its momentum is precisely defined.
The HUP refers to statistical properties of observables, independent of the state the system is prepared in. In the case of photons there's no position observable, and thus there cannot be uncertainty relations for it.

I'd say the most convincing evidence for photons being massless is the upper limit of the mass of the em. field, given in the particle data booklet. There you can also find the experimental papers, this limit is extracted from:

https://pdg.lbl.gov/2022/web/viewer.html?file=../listings/rpp2022-list-photon.pdf
 
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  • #25
vanhees71 said:
In the case of photons there's no position observable
Yes isn't this statement equivalent to the statement "the photon doesn't have well defined position operator"?
vanhees71 said:
I'd say the most convincing evidence for photons being massless is the upper limit of the mass of the em. field, given in the particle data booklet. There you can also find the experimental papers, this limit is extracted from:
Sorry I lost you, what's got to do here the fact that the photon is massless?
 
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Delta2 said:
what's got to do here the fact that the photon is massless?

For massive particles there is no problem with defining position operator.
 
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  • #27
Vanadium 50 said:
one can measure the speed of gammas from individual nuclear disintegrations, and it's c
How can you do that? Even if it is a gamma, once you detect it to start your speed measurement, it is absorbed and cannot be detected to stop the speed measurement. Is there some non-destructive way to measure a single photon?
 
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  • #28
Didn't I say it was hard?

There a a few ways to handle it. Perhaps the easiest is to look at decays involving multiple particles, including recoil. Then t0 happens when the nucleus decays, and (at least) one particle is detected, and t1 happens later when the photon is detected a distance x away. Then c is x/(t1-t0).

60Co might be a good candidate. It decays vie eγγ most of the time, with an angular correlation between the two gammas. You could vary the positions of the two detectors and fit for c, using distances, angles and energies as inputs: This has the advantage of relative insensitivity to background processes.
 
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  • #29
Vanadium 50 said:
including recoil
Ah, of course. Then it does matter that it is a gamma so that you get a good amount of recoil.
 
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  • #30
PeterDonis said:
Where? Please give a reference.

Well, I looked for such references, and to my surprise I could not find any. The photon does not have a well-defined position, but for reasons other than I thought. I had assumed that SR required the photon to travel at exactly the speed of light and that this caused, via the HUP, to make the position unknown.

Thank you all for your input.
 
  • #31
LarryS said:
I had assumed that SR required the photon to travel at exactly the speed of light and that this caused, via the HUP, to make the position unknown.
SR is a classical theory, not a quantum theory, and has no concept of "photons" (although unfortunately many SR textbooks misleadingly use the term "photon" instead of something like "light pulse" or "light ray"--Taylor & Wheeler is one textbook that, IIRC, actually explains why "photon" is not a good term in a classical theory).

Quantum field theory is our best current quantum theory that takes SR effects into account, but in QFT photons do not always travel at exactly the speed of light; they have nonzero probability amplitudes for traveling faster or slower than light. Also, in QFT, the HUP doesn't work the way you were thinking it does; photons still do not have a well-defined position operator so there is no way to relate their momentum uncertainty to any position uncertainty.
 
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  • #32
LarryS said:
I had assumed that SR required the photon to travel at exactly the speed of light and that this caused, via the HUP, to make the position unknown.
Even leaving aside all the other issues that have been raised, and assuming for the sake of argument that we could formulate a HUP for photons using some kind of position operator, this reasoning would still be invalid. The HUP is between position and momentum, not position and velocity, and even if photons in QM traveled at exactly the speed of light, they still do not all have the same momentum and they can still have momentum uncertainty. (Their momentum uncertainty would be related to uncertainty in their energy.) So it still would not follow that photons being forced to travel exactly at the speed of light would have to have completely uncertain position.
 
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  • #33
@LarryS have you considered trying to learn physics sequentially? This is kind of like having a blind man paint your house with paintballs. I mean, sure, eventually the job will get done, but it may not be the most efficient way.
 
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  • #34
Good suggestion but I'm having too much fun bouncing around from subject to subject. :smile: I retired a few years ago after spending 50 years in IT. This is all for pure enjoyment. Physics Forums allows me to pick the brains of those with more formal education and experience in physics than myself.
 
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  • #35
Yes, but you are making the people who are helping you work harder than necessary as well. A more methodical approach will make their lives easier, and you will learn more and faster. Everybody wins.

There's a reason we don't paint houses with the blind paintball method.
 
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  • #36
LarryS said:
Well, I looked for such references, and to my surprise I could not find any. The photon does not have a well-defined position, but for reasons other than I thought. I had assumed that SR required the photon to travel at exactly the speed of light and that this caused, via the HUP, to make the position unknown.

Thank you all for your input.
The photon has not even a position observable, and thus there's no HUP to begin with.
 
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  • #37
vanhees71 said:
The photon has not even a position observable, and thus there's no HUP to begin with.
And why is that?
 
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  • #39
@vanhees71 that page is too old, I think it was written before Latex was invented. This doesn't mean it is wrong just very hard to read
 
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  • #40
em sorry @gentzen does my browser has a problem and doesn't display the page correctly or what?
 
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Delta2 said:
em sorry @gentzen does my browser has a problem and doesn't display the page correctly or what?
I have now read the content of that page. Of course I did not understand everything, but that was totally unrelated to that page not using LaTeX. And even before I read it, it was clear that its readability was unaffected by its ascii representation of the formulas.
 
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  • #42
gentzen said:
I have now read the content of that page. Of course I did not understand everything, but that was totally unrelated to that page not using LaTeX. And even before I read it, it was clear that its readability was unaffected by its ascii representation of the formulas.
Ok, well for me clearly its readability is problematic (remembers pre 2000 pages, circa 1995-1999) but anyhow at least I know its not my browser.
 
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  • #43
Going back to the spirit of the OP, first, can an experiment be set up that produces what the consensus would agree can be considered a single photon? If so, does that photon, have measurable physical properties such as motion in space over time or extension over space that are measurable within experimental limits? If so, can such things as the movement through space be measured without significantly changing such properties? If so, could the same photon be measured twice at two different locations in its path and thus a speed experimentally defined? If the properties are changed at the first measurement, nevertheless could the differences between the two measurements still be used to define a photon speed and compare events? Thanks.
 
  • #44
Photons are defined by the three quantum numbers associated with momentum, energy and polarization; position and time do not enter into consideration. (Arthur Zajonc in “The nature of light: what is a photon?”)
 
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  • #45
bob012345 said:
can an experiment be set up that produces what the consensus would agree can be considered a single photon?
Sort of. You can do experiments with very faint light sources in which individual dots show up on a detector; the dots in such experiments can be interpreted as the detection of single photons by the detector. In most cases, however, such light sources do not emit a state of the quantum electromagnetic field that would normally be interpreted as a "single photon" state. Such a state would be a Fock state, and sources that emit Fock states are extremely hard to make. Most light sources emit coherent states, which have no definite photon number.

bob012345 said:
If so, does that photon, have measurable physical properties such as motion in space over time or extension over space that are measurable within experimental limits?
No. Photons are not little billiard balls. They aren't even close.
 
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  • #46
PeterDonis said:
Sort of. You can do experiments with very faint light sources in which individual dots show up on a detector; the dots in such experiments can be interpreted as the detection of single photons by the detector. In most cases, however, such light sources do not emit a state of the quantum electromagnetic field that would normally be interpreted as a "single photon" state. Such a state would be a Fock state, and sources that emit Fock states are extremely hard to make. Most light sources emit coherent states, which have no definite photon number.
Such "faint light sources" are no single-photon sources but just coherent states of very low intensity, i.e., it's mostly the vacuum state but contains also ##N##-photon states for all ##N \in \mathbb{N}_0##.

True single-photon states are not so simple to have, but for some decades one has such sources. One standard way is to use parametric down-conversion, where you use a laser and certain sorts of birefringent crystals (like beta-barium borat, BBO), where for certain directions behind the crystal you get entangled photon pairs, i.e., one photon from the laser interacts with the crystal in such a way that two photons are created such that energy and momentum is conserved ("phase matching") as well as the polarization of the two photons are entangled. Depending on the type of conversion you get singlet or triplet polarization states. You can use this as a "heralded single-photon source", i.e., you use one photon as a "trigger", announcing the other photon (the "idler") to be present in the corresponding other direction determined by the phase-matching condition. If you also measure the polarization state of the trigger photon you also know the polarization state of the idler photon. In this way you get a true one-photon source.
PeterDonis said:
No. Photons are not little billiard balls. They aren't even close.
I couldn't agree more. Photons do not even have a position observable in the usual sense. To get an intuition for photons you should just think of them as electromagnetic waves and the intensity of the electromagnetic wave as the probability density to detect a photon at a place determined by the position of the detector. The most distinct property of a single-photon state in comparison to a classical em. wave is that it can be absorbed as a whole or not at all. There's no way to absorb "half a photon". That's the only sense you have "particle-like features" of single-photon states, but it's not possible to define a position of a single photon.

Another case are "cavity photons". There you have a box made of conducting walls. As classical electrodynamics tells you, in this case you have some boundary conditions for the electromagnetic field to fulfill, leading to discrete frequencies and wave numbers, out of which the most general radiation field can be built. These are all "standing waves", due to the boundary conditions. A photon is now a certain state of the corresponding quantized field. This photon is, of course "localized" within the cavity, i.e., the probability to detect it outside the cacity is 0, but it has no position within the cavity either. It's just within the cavity but not in any sense like a point particle, bouncing back and forth between the walls of the cavity.
 
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  • #47
PeterDonis said:
Sort of. You can do experiments with very faint light sources in which individual dots show up on a detector; the dots in such experiments can be interpreted as the detection of single photons by the detector. In most cases, however, such light sources do not emit a state of the quantum electromagnetic field that would normally be interpreted as a "single photon" state. Such a state would be a Fock state, and sources that emit Fock states are extremely hard to make. Most light sources emit coherent states, which have no definite photon number.
Thanks. FYI here is a talk about making a Fock laser


PeterDonis said:
No. Photons are not little billiard balls. They aren't even close.
And I was not suggesting they are. I was carefully trying to ask about what can and can't be measured in the spirit of the OP.
 
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  • #48
vanhees71 said:
Another case are "cavity photons". There you have a box made of conducting walls. As classical electrodynamics tells you, in this case you have some boundary conditions for the electromagnetic field to fulfill, leading to discrete frequencies and wave numbers, out of which the most general radiation field can be built. These are all "standing waves", due to the boundary conditions. A photon is now a certain state of the corresponding quantized field. This photon is, of course "localized" within the cavity, i.e., the probability to detect it outside the cavity is 0, but it has no position within the cavity either. It's just within the cavity but not in any sense like a point particle, bouncing back and forth between the walls of the cavity.
So, is there such a thing as a single photon propagating in space? I'm hearing no, don't think that way. If it is a pure wave it surely can't fill the universe (cavity) at once so it must have some kind of leading edge. Why can't that edge be measured as it passes a detector? It seems photons as real moving and interacting objects were fundamental to early Quantum theory and effects such as the photoelectric effect and Planck's blackbody radiation.
 
  • #49
bob012345 said:
is there such a thing as a single photon propagating in space? I'm hearing no, don't think that way.
You're hearing correctly.

bob012345 said:
Why can't that edge be measured as it passes a detector?
Any such measurement does not detect an "edge" of a wave. It detects a particle--for example, a dot on a detector screen. Wave patterns seen in measurements of light are obtained from measurements of large numbers of photons, either because the light source is high intensity, or because the experiment is run for a long time in order to detect many photons one at a time over a long period (for example, a double slit experiment run with a very faint light source, in which individual dot impacts on the detector gradually build up an interference pattern).

bob012345 said:
It seems photons as real moving and interacting objects were fundamental to early Quantum theory and effects such as the photoelectric effect and Planck's blackbody radiation.
Photons as a concept associated with quantum properties of light were fundamental to these things. But photons as "moving and interacting objects" in the sense you mean were not. The early theorists didn't know that because they didn't know very much about photons and didn't have a theory for them; they just had some heuristic ideas. Now we have a theory of photons, the quantum field theory of the electromagnetic field, and we know that all the effects you describe can be accounted for just fine even though photons are not "moving and interacting objects" in the sense you mean.
 
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  • #50
Are you trying to say something like it's the field, always the field and only the field that exists and any manifestation of what one would label a photon is merely a local quantum state of the field?
 
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