Is the Chain Rule Applied to Spherical Polar Coordinates Different?

Click For Summary
SUMMARY

The discussion focuses on the application of the chain rule in spherical polar coordinates, specifically addressing the derivatives of variables such as ##x, y, z,## and ##r##. Participants clarify that the relationship between partial derivatives is not straightforward, emphasizing that ##\partial x/\partial r## does not equal ##(\partial r/\partial x)^{-1}##. The transformation from Cartesian to spherical coordinates is explored, leading to the conclusion that ##\frac{\partial r}{\partial x} = \frac{x}{r}## and the importance of matrix inversion for finding derivatives in multi-variable functions.

PREREQUISITES
  • Spherical polar coordinates
  • Partial derivatives and their properties
  • Matrix inversion techniques
  • LaTeX for mathematical notation
NEXT STEPS
  • Study the derivation of partial derivatives in spherical coordinates
  • Learn about matrix calculus and its applications in multivariable functions
  • Practice using LaTeX for complex mathematical expressions
  • Explore the chain rule in the context of multiple variables
USEFUL FOR

Mathematicians, physicists, and engineering students who are working with multivariable calculus and need to understand the intricacies of coordinate transformations and partial derivatives.

physconomics
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
Homework Statement
##x=r sin\theta cos\phi, y=rsin\theta sin\phi, z=rcos\theta##
Find ##\delta f/\delta x##and##\delta r/\delta x## treating r as a function of the cartesian coordinates
Given f is a function of r only, show
##\delta f^2/\delta x = (x/r)(df/dr)##
and
##\delta ^2 *f/\delta x^2 = (1/r)(df/dr) + (x^2/r)(d/dr)(1/r)(df/dr)##
Relevant Equations
?
Ive found ##\delta x/\delta r## as ##sin\theta cos\phi##
##\delta r/\delta x## as ##csc\theta sec\phi##
But unsure how to do the second part? Chain rule seems to give r/x not x/r?
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
physconomics said:
Ive found ##\partial f\over \partial x## as ##\sin\theta \cos\phi##
You can't mean that. Independent of ##f## ?
 
physconomics said:
Ive found ##\delta f/\delta x## as ##sin\theta cos\phi##
##\delta r/\delta x## as ##csc\theta sec\phi##
But unsure how to do the second part? Chain rule seems to give r/x not x/r?

Please show your actual work, not just your end result.

Also, note that ##\partial## is written \partial in LaTeX.
 
BvU said:
You can't mean that. Independent of ##f## ?
Sorry, I meant ##\frac{\partial x}{\partial r}##
 
physconomics said:
Sorry, I meant ##\frac{\partial x}{\partial r}##
It is not true for partial derivatives that ##\partial x/\partial r = (\partial r/\partial x)^{-1}##
 
Orodruin said:
Please show your actual work, not just your end result.
And then we will try to work our way through this very relevant exercise :smile: .
 
Orodruin said:
It is not true for partial derivatives that ##\partial x/\partial r = (\partial r/\partial x)^{-1}##
Okay, so how else would I get ##\partial x/\partial r##?
 
Invert the transformation
$$x=r \sin\theta \cos\phi, \quad y=r\sin\theta \sin\phi, \quad z=r\cos\theta$$ to $$r = ...(x, y,z),\quad \phi = ...,\quad \theta = ...$$

(advice: use \sin and \cos, \log etc in ##\LaTeX##)
 
BvU said:
Invert the transformation

x=rsinθcosϕ,y=rsinθsinϕ,z=rcosθx=rsin⁡θcos⁡ϕ,y=rsin⁡θsin⁡ϕ,z=rcos⁡θ​

to

r=...(x,y,z),ϕ=...,θ=...r=...(x,y,z),ϕ=...,θ=...​
(advice: use \sin and \cos, \log etc in LATEXLATEX)
Okay so I get
r=√x2+y2+z2r=x2+y2+z2
##\theta = \cos^{-1} (\frac {z} {\sqrt{x^2 + y^2 + z^2})##
ϕ=tan−1(yx)ϕ=tan−1⁡(yx)

Am I right in thinking this makes

∂r∂x=sinθcosϕ∂r∂x=sin⁡θcos⁡ϕ?
 
  • #10
But there are tricks available -- ah you are on a good track. Differentiating ##r^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2## is easier to deal with.

Use \sqrt { ...} and always preview to check parentheses are right.
 
  • #11
BvU said:
But there are tricks available -- ah you are on a good track. Differentiating ##r^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2## is easier to deal with.

Use \sqrt { ...} and always preview to check parentheses are right.
Oh god of course, thank you.
So ##\frac{\partial r}{\partial x} = \frac{x}{r}##
And then from that I can show
##\frac{\partial f}{\partial x} = \frac{\partial f}{\partial r} \frac{\partial r}{\partial x} = \frac{df}{dr}\frac{x}{r}##
Im guessing I just use the chain rule for the next part?

Sorry for the state of my LaTeX maths
 
  • #12
Good ! Keep going ...

physconomics said:
Sorry for the state of my LaTeX maths
No need. You are obviously eager to learn and we are equally eager to assist.
 
  • #13
BvU said:
Good ! Keep going ...

No need. You are obviously eager to learn and we are equally eager to assist.

Right so I'm a bit stuck, I'm getting ##\frac{\partial^2 f}{\partial x^2} = \frac{\partial}{\partial x}(\frac{df}{dr}\frac{x}{r}) = \frac{\partial}{\partial x}(\frac{df}{dr}) \frac{x}{r} + \frac{df}{dr}\frac{1}{r} ##
where
##\frac{\partial}{\partial x}(\frac{df}{dr}) = \frac{\partial}{\partial x}(\frac{r}{x} \frac{\partial f}{\partial x}) = (\frac{-r}{x^2} \frac{\partial f}{\partial x}) + (\frac{r}{x}\frac{\partial^2 f}{\partial x^2})##
Is this correct? It doesn't lead me to the right answer
 
  • #14
BvU said:
Invert the transformation
$$x=r \sin\theta \cos\phi, \quad y=r\sin\theta \sin\phi, \quad z=r\cos\theta$$ to $$r = ...(x, y,z),\quad \phi = ...,\quad \theta = ...$$

(advice: use \sin and \cos, \log etc in ##\LaTeX##)

It should be noted that you can do this without actually inverting the coordinate relations. The general theory is based on the chain rule. For a function of one parameter only, say ##y(x)##, you would have
$$
1 = \frac{dx}{dx} = \frac{dy}{dx} \frac{dx}{dy}.
$$
This is the reason that ##dx/dy = (dy/dx)^{-1}## in this case (just solve for ##dx/dy##). However, for functions of several variables, say ##y^i(x^1, \ldots, x^n)##, the chain rule would instead give you
$$
\delta^i_j = \frac{\partial y^i}{\partial y^j} = \sum_{k} \frac{\partial y^i}{\partial x^k} \frac{\partial x^k}{\partial y^j}.
$$
Thus, from here you cannot just divide by a factor from the RHS to obtain ##\partial x^k/\partial y^j## since what you have is a sum. However, if you define the matrices ##A## and ##B## defined as
$$
A = \begin{pmatrix}\frac{\partial x^1}{\partial y^1} & \frac{\partial x^1}{\partial y^2} & \ldots \\
\frac{\partial x^2}{\partial y^1} & \frac{\partial x^2}{\partial y^2} & \ldots \\
\vdots & \vdots & \ddots \end{pmatrix}, \qquad
B = \begin{pmatrix}\frac{\partial y^1}{\partial x^1} & \frac{\partial y^1}{\partial x^2} & \ldots \\
\frac{\partial y^2}{\partial x^1} & \frac{\partial y^2}{\partial x^2} & \ldots \\
\vdots & \vdots & \ddots \end{pmatrix},
$$
then the relation can be rewritten
$$
1_n = BA,
$$
where ##1_n## is the ##n \times n## unit matrix. In other words, ##A = B^{-1}##. Thus, if you compute all the derivatives ##\partial y^i/\partial x^j##, you can find ##\partial x^i/\partial y^j## by matrix inversion.

However, if you are unfamiliar with matrices, it is also fine to solve the linear system of equations. For example, in polar coordinates on ##\mathbb R^2##: ##x = r\cos\phi##, ##y = r\sin\phi##, you would find
$$
1 = \frac{\partial x}{\partial x} = \frac{\partial x}{\partial r} \frac{\partial r}{\partial x} + \frac{\partial x}{\partial \phi} \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial x} = \cos\phi \frac{\partial r}{\partial x} - r \sin\phi \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial x}
$$
and
$$
0 = \frac{\partial y}{\partial x} = \frac{\partial y}{\partial r} \frac{\partial r}{\partial x} + \frac{\partial y}{\partial \phi} \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial x} = \sin\phi \frac{\partial r}{\partial x} + r \cos\phi \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial x}
$$
from which you can solve directly for ##\partial r/\partial x## and ##\partial \phi/\partial x##.
 
  • Like
Likes BvU
  • #15
physconomics said:
Right so I'm a bit stuck, I'm getting ##\frac{\partial^2 f}{\partial x^2} = \frac{\partial}{\partial x}(\frac{df}{dr}\frac{x}{r}) = \frac{\partial}{\partial x}(\frac{df}{dr}) \frac{x}{r} + \frac{df}{dr}\frac{1}{r} ##
where
##\frac{\partial}{\partial x}(\frac{df}{dr}) = \frac{\partial}{\partial x}(\frac{r}{x} \frac{\partial f}{\partial x}) = (\frac{-r}{x^2} \frac{\partial f}{\partial x}) + (\frac{r}{x}\frac{\partial^2 f}{\partial x^2})##
Is this correct? It doesn't lead me to the right answer
Note that
$$
\frac{\partial}{\partial x} \frac{x}{r} \neq \frac 1r
$$
as ##r## depends on ##x##.
 
  • #16
Orodruin said:
Note that
$$
\frac{\partial}{\partial x} \frac{x}{r} \neq \frac 1r
$$
as ##r## depends on ##x##.
Is ##\frac{\partial}{\partial x} \frac{x}{r} = \frac{r - \frac{x^2}{r}}{r^2}##
 
  • #17
physconomics said:
Is ##\frac{\partial}{\partial x} \frac{x}{r} = \frac{r - \frac{x^2}{r}}{r^2}##

Yes, although writing:

##\frac{\partial}{\partial x} \frac{x}{r} = \frac{r^2 - x^2}{r^3}##

seems a bit more logical.
 

Similar threads

Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
848
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
Replies
6
Views
3K
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
4K