# News Stability of anarchy.

#### oldunion

Townsend said:
What I think matters in this conversation since I was asking why I should want to live in a socialist economy and you were answering. Therefore what I think is the only important thing in this conversation. However you are mistaken to think that the majority of people would want what your talking about. And if it is that majority should get what they want then don't complain when republicans are put in office.

Besides...you cannot make me work for you without violating my civil rights. And yet you want to make everyone have equal wealth. Ok fine....I wont work and I want to be equal. That is what your talking about......

And you idea of what everyone should get is just plain BS....who decides what everyone is allowed to have? If everyone is equal then everyone gets the same thing...PERIOD other wise it is not equal. If it is not equal then all you have done is miss allocate goods and services from people who would have earned them to people who would not have earned them. So in the end, there is no reason for me to work in your socialist society...not at all...and I better damn well live just as good as everyone else!!

Its easy to find problems in anything. i see no point in trying to explain these concepts to you any more until you have researched them further. It seems like i keep saying the same thing in different ways.

#### Anttech

Its an idea but unsustainable, people should be free to earn as much as they like, however Markets should be constructuted and monitored in a way that eliminated monopolies, like that of Microsoft...

Microsoft Monopoly takes away consumer choice, and is unhealthy for the progression of a sector that is growing, like that of Information Technology...

For developing economies to grow and poverty reduced worldwide, we must have Fair trade globally... Free trade is also fine, however our governments (or International non-profit watch dogs) should be able to stop business unfairly manipulating prices and under paying workforces, or aggressively buying out competitors so they can dictate a market, especially very large companies like Shell for example...

This is not rocket science (suppose that saying is wasted @ PF ;-) ) and is achievable.. Greed is what stops us from reducing poverty worldwide

#### Townsend

loseyourname said:
For a completely socialist society to function, they'd have to give you no choice. You either work, or it's off to the re-education center.
As far as I can tell you're exactly right. So basically the government would have to violate my most basic human rights in order to make a socialist society work.

Why not just have labor camps then? Just as good, right? If someone doesn't obey then we just take away their food and water and health care until they either die or capitulate....

#### Townsend

oldunion said:
Its easy to find problems in anything. i see no point in trying to explain these concepts to you any more until you have researched them further. It seems like i keep saying the same thing in different ways.
Violating my civil rights in much more than a problem....it is unacceptable in any form and for whatever reason and at all times.

#### Smurf

Townsend said:
As far as I can tell you're exactly right. So basically the government would have to violate my most basic human rights in order to make a socialist society work.
Food for thought: What's the difference between a government forcing you to work and a market letting you choose between working and dying of starvation?

#### Townsend

Anttech said:
Maybe there would be less to no need to give to charity?
Maybe there wouldn't be a need for it, or maybe everyone can be rich and yet still want to work at a crappy job that nobody wants or would take in their right mind, or maybe the martins will invade....in any case what is the point in making a bunch of unlikely 'maybe' scenarios?

#### Anttech

Maybe there wouldn't be a need for it, or maybe everyone can be rich and yet still want to work at a crappy job that nobody wants or would take in their right mind, or maybe the martins will invade....in any case what is the point in making a bunch of unlikely 'maybe' scenarios?
Solid arguement.. would it make you feel better if I removed the "maybe" you seem to be a bit hung up on it... shhs

#### Townsend

Smurf said:
Food for thought: What's the difference between a government forcing you to work and a market letting you choose between working and dying of starvation?
Freedom baby...that is the difference and all the difference in the world...

Come on Smurf.....OK>>>>

Let's pretend there is a socialist society here at PF....I'll be your despotic leader and assign duties and make sure everyone gets an equal amount of everything. To start with, Smurf...you are to be to work at 4:00 AM and work until 4:00 PM checking each and every post made here at PF for spelling and grammar errors and then fixing them. You get no lunch break and you get paid 1.50 and hour. But I will take care of your medical needs and make sure that after you have been doing this job for the next 60 years (you don't get to retire until your 89 years old) you can relax and get your 500 dollars a month in government retirement check. Enjoy your life....

#### Smurf

Townsend said:
Freedom baby...that is the difference and all the difference in the world...

Come on Smurf.....OK>>>>

Let's pretend there is a socialist society here at PF....I'll be your despotic leader and assign duties and make sure everyone gets an equal amount of everything. To start with, Smurf...you are to be to work at 4:00 AM and work until 4:00 PM checking each and every post made here at PF for spelling and grammar errors and then fixing them. You get no lunch break and you get paid 1.50 and hour. But I will take care of your medical needs and make sure that after you have been doing this job for the next 60 years (you don't get to retire until your 89 years old) you can relax and get your 500 dollars a month in government retirement check. Enjoy your life....
Just what do you think we're advocating here? We're not ****ing fascists or corporates!

#### Smurf

On a side note, has anyone here yet tried looking at an example of one of the more socialist countries? Like Cuba? And seeing how they do it? You know, instead of jumping to conclusions that the country will become one big nazi labour camp.

#### Townsend

Smurf said:
Just what do you think we're advocating here? We're not ****ing fascists or corporates!
A simple question....what will the state do for me if I refuse to work? I could just as easily break my leg if I need a medical excuse cause I can PROMISE you, that if I was not working to get rich so I don't have to work then I would not work at all. NO and's if's or but's about it.

So I want to know how I will be taken care of when I refuse to work. In a capitalist society I am free to make those choices and I am responsible for my own actions and so I can't complain if I end up screwing myself. Am I responsible for my own actions if I live in a socialist society too?

#### Smurf

Townsend said:
A simple question....what will the state do for me if I refuse to work? I could just as easily break my leg if I need a medical excuse cause I can PROMISE you, that if I was not working to get rich so I don't have to work then I would not work at all. NO and's if's or but's about it.

So I want to know how I will be taken care of when I refuse to work. In a capitalist society I am free to make those choices and I am responsible for my own actions and so I can't complain if I end up screwing myself. Am I responsible for my own actions if I live in a socialist society too?
I think an interesting idea would be that if a person did choose not to work you could lower his standard of living. The state would assign you a less nice house, give you fewer rations - but enough to survive, not give you a car (if there are cars at all), ect. And then they would reward the harder workers with other priviledges.

One of the biggest misonceptions about command economies is that they don't follow typical business rules. Now, I obviously can't say that they all do and will, but they certainly have the capacity to.

Say townsend, can you tell me the name of that company? The cosmetics seller people, Kay-something or what not? It's that american company that has a reputation for "corrupting" house wives into fanatical sales women? What are they called again? They have big annual celebrations where the best sales persons get wicked rewards like pink SUVs and cadillacs (always pink) what's that name.. that name...?

#### Townsend

Like Smurf suggested let's look at Cuba. What a great example of the good times people can look forward to in a socialist society.
For native-born Cubans, however, this free health care system offers little more than what they pay for. Hospitals are short-staffed especially in regards to nurses, orderlies, and janitors, and also doctors during mass deployments of doctors abroad, and are perpetually under-maintained, under-equipped, under-supplied, and unhygienic. Horrific conditions were documented by reporters Carlos Wotzkow and María Elena Morejón [6] in a visit in 2005. Cubans have to supply their own food, bed linen, and basic medicines when they go to hospital, to bring friends along to try to clean, and on Cubanet [7] there are frequent stories of doctors and surgeons resorting to grotesque improvisations to address shortages of surgical supplies.
Supply and demand issues to no end is really something to look forward too....

#### Townsend

Smurf said:
I think an interesting idea would be that if a person did choose not to work you could lower his standard of living. The state would assign you a less nice house, give you fewer rations - but enough to survive, not give you a car (if there are cars at all), ect. And then they would reward the harder workers with other priviledges.
That is exactly what capitalism DOES do now...

One of the biggest misonceptions about command economies is that they don't follow typical business rules. Now, I obviously can't say that they all do and will, but they certainly have the capacity to.
Price controls are terrible business practices and every government is inefficent. Combine the two and you get conditions exactly like in Cuba's hospitals....hell!

Say townsend, can you tell me the name of that company? The cosmetics seller people, Kay-something or what not? It's that american company that has a reputation for "corrupting" house wives into fanatical sales women? What are they called again? They have big annual celebrations where the best sales persons get wicked rewards like pink SUVs and cadillacs (always pink) what's that name.. that name...?
I have no idea....maybe you mean Avon or something...sorry, maybe someone else can offer you more help.

#### TheStatutoryApe

Smurf said:
Considering that the version of Anarchism you advocate has many parallels to socialism/communism I don't think it was that unexpected for them to be brought into the discussion. I've been adressing both in my posts, it seems I can adress both rather effectively with the same questions and arguements.
At any rate....

Smurf said:
I think an interesting idea would be that if a person did choose not to work you could lower his standard of living. The state would assign you a less nice house, give you fewer rations - but enough to survive, not give you a car (if there are cars at all), ect. And then they would reward the harder workers with other priviledges.
This is easily the beginings of a class system. The next thing you know workers with skills that are rare and more valuable than most will stop working until they receive more and better "priviledges" than the others. If you intend to keep progressing then you will have to make sure to keep the more valuable workers happy and you will have to give in to their demands. And what of the physicists that decide that they like gardening and one day quite their job in the physics lab to be a gardener or some such thing instead? And why shouldn't they? They receive just as much for either job right? So they might as well do the thing that they enjoy more. Then we'll have great physicists and doctors and engineers working in gardens or trying to start rock bands because they have no incentive to do the more difficult work other than self satisfaction which they can easily get elsewhere.
Any way... This brings us right back to a class system if you intend to give more valuable workers more benefits for their work but the point of your system is to abolish the class system. So what now?

#### Smurf

TheStatutoryApe said:
Any way... This brings us right back to a class system if you intend to give more valuable workers more benefits for their work but the point of your system is to abolish the class system. So what now?
Hmmm good point. Oh well. I still want to know more about Cuba, I'm frighteningly uninformed about the details of their system. It's a shame too because it's just so different.

#### TheStatutoryApe

Smurf said:
Hmmm good point. Oh well. I still want to know more about Cuba, I'm frighteningly uninformed about the details of their system. It's a shame too because it's just so different.
Oh my... are really conceeding a point or just tired of the debate? lol

Since it's been mentioned I've been intending to read up some more myself. Also those examples of Anarchist societies that have been mentioned.
I read once about a man who studied a small island tribe. Supposely they had never had an instance of theft, murder, or rape until missionaries came along and saved their godless souls from damnation. I haven't been able to find material on this though since I read about it. I've forgetton the specifics but I'll let you know if I come across it. They were more or less tribal anarchist/socialist types from what I understand. So it's possible that Jerkus is real to some extent but that remains to be seen.

#### Smurf

TheStatutoryApe said:
Oh my... are really conceeding a point or just tired of the debate? lol
No I'm conceeding. That was an over simplification.

#### loseyourname

Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
Smurf said:
Say townsend, can you tell me the name of that company? The cosmetics seller people, Kay-something or what not? It's that american company that has a reputation for "corrupting" house wives into fanatical sales women? What are they called again? They have big annual celebrations where the best sales persons get wicked rewards like pink SUVs and cadillacs (always pink) what's that name.. that name...?
Mary Kay. They've created more female millionaires than any other company ever.

#### Anttech

Freedom baby...that is the difference and all the difference in the world...
Capitalism (I assume you are a pure capitalist) in the end takes away consumer choice... As multinationals get bigger and bigger, they eat up smaller companies, or eventually muscle them out of the market... In the end you end up with a few very big companies, who dictate the market, (and thus the economy)... And it leaves you and me with no choice, and therefore no freedom... Socialism prevents this by representing me and you (as consumers) stopping these multinationals from killing a "free and fair economy"

There are example of this right now... You are most probably using it right now.. Microsoft windows... If you arent looking at it, then you probably should be (unless you are a funny mac user :tongue2: , becuase Linux is "Socialism" in the works)

Business is NOT socially conscientious, the ends are to make more and more money.. the means are whatever way they can get away!

#### Anttech

I cared little about this thread until a few days ago. But now it's back to reiterating that the only reason people still believe in the various flavors of socialism/marxism/communism/anarchism is because they don't understand how/why economics works. Ie:
I understand the ecconomy thank you very much! I just dont believe it is healthy for the global ecconomy to have these Bloated bigger than belief companies,who basically can print there own money becuase they have cornered a certain market... as I said before it takes away our scope of choice, and it can lead to stagnation of products development... **Pure** Capitialism cant be trusted for our future because the ideal prays to money and doesnt give a ****e about social values...

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