Statements about subrings and quotient

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of subrings and quotient rings in relation to various ring conditions such as being Noetherian, Artinian, P.I.D., U.F.D., and Euclidean domains. Participants explore whether these properties hold for subrings and quotient rings derived from a larger ring.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether a subring $S$ of a Noetherian ring $R$ is necessarily Noetherian, suggesting that not all ideals of $R$ are contained in $S$.
  • Concerns are raised about whether a subring $S$ of an Artinian ring $R$ is also Artinian, with similar reasoning regarding the containment of ideals.
  • One participant proposes that if $R$ is a P.I.D., then $S$ must also be a P.I.D., but seeks clarification on this assertion.
  • Another participant questions whether the properties of U.F.D.s apply to subrings, asking if the factorization properties hold for $S$ as they do for $R$.
  • Counter-examples are suggested to challenge the initial claims, including the example of $\mathbb{Z}$ as a subring of $\mathbb{Q}$ and the non-Noetherian integral domain $K[x_1, x_2, \dots]$.
  • Participants discuss the Hilbert basis theorem and the correspondence theorem for rings in relation to the properties of ideals in these contexts.
  • There is a mention of the ideals of $\mathbb{R}$ and its implications for being Artinian, with a participant questioning the finiteness of the ideal sequence.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the implications of ring properties on subrings and quotient rings. No consensus is reached on whether subrings inherit the properties of their containing rings.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of definitive examples or counter-examples for some claims, and the discussion remains open-ended regarding the application of theorems and the nature of ideals in subrings.

mathmari
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Hey! :o

I want to check if the following statement are true.

Let $R$ be a ring, $S$ a subring and $I$ an ideal.

  1. If $R$ is Noetherian then $S$ is also.
  2. If $R$ is Noetherian then $R/I$ is also.
  3. If $R$ is Artinian then $S$ is also.
  4. If $R$ is Artinian then $R/I$ is also.
  5. If $R$ is P.I.D. then $S$ is also.
  6. If $R$ is P.I.D. then $R/I$ is also.
  7. If $R$ is U.F.D. then $S$ is also.
  8. If $R$ is U.F.D. then $R/I$ is also.
  9. If $R$ is an euclidean domain then $S$ is also.
I have done the following:

  1. $R$ is Noetherian iff each increasing sequence of ideal $I_1\subseteq I_2 \subseteq I_3 \subseteq \dots \subseteq I_k\subseteq \dots $ stops, i.e., $\exists k$ such that $I_k=I_{k+1}$, right?
    Then since $S$ is a subring of $R$, not all $I_i$ are contained in $S$. Therefore, the above condition isn't necessarily satisfied. So, $S$ is not necessarily Noetherian.
    is this correct? (Wondering)
  2. What can we say in that case? Does the increasing sequence stop? (Wondering)
  3. $R$ is Artinian iff each decreasing sequence of ideal $I_1\supseteq I_2 \supseteq I_3 \supseteq \dots \supseteq I_k\supseteq \dots $ stops, i.e., $\exists k$ such that $I_k=I_{k+1}$, right?
    Then since $S$ is a subring of $R$, not all $I_i$ are contained in $S$. Therefore, the above condition isn't necessarily satisfied. So, $S$ is not necessarily Artinian.
    is this correct? (Wondering)
  4. What can we say in that case? Does the decreasing sequence stop? (Wondering)
  5. If $R$ is P.I.D. then the ideals are prime, therefore $S$ contain also only prime ideals. So, $S$ is also P.I.D., right? (Wondering)
  6. What can we say in this case? (Wondering)
  7. If $R$ is U.F.D. then $\forall r\in R\setminus \{0\}$, $r\notin U(R)$: $r=a_1 \cdots a_k$ with $a_i$ irreducible, and if $r=a_1\cdots a_k=b_1\cdots b_t$ with $a_i, b_i$ irreducible then $k=t$ and $a_i=b_iu_i$ with $u_i\in U(R), \forall i=1, \dots , k$.
    Does the same hold also for $S$ ? (Wondering)
  8. And also in this case? (Wondering)
  9. How can we check that? (Wondering)
 
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Your "proofs" for 1 & 3 are not correct. It is not the case that an ideal of a subring $S$ is an ideal of its containing ring $R$.

For example, $\Bbb Z$ is a subring of $\Bbb Q$, but $2\Bbb Z$ is an ideal of $\Bbb Q$, but not of $\Bbb Q$.

Also, just because some of the ideals of $R$ lie outside of $S$, does not mean that the ideals of $S$ fail to satisfy the Noetherian ascending chain condition.

What you want is a *counter-example*. Here is something to get you started on #1:

Any field is Noetherian, and any integral domain can be extended to a field. Can you find a non-Noetherian integral domain?

For 2, consider the correspondence theorem for rings.

For number 3, consider $S = \Bbb Z$. This ring is non-Artinian, can you find an Artinian ring it is a sub-ring of?

We'll discuss the other questions later.
 
Deveno said:
Any field is Noetherian, and any integral domain can be extended to a field. Can you find a non-Noetherian integral domain?

Let $K$ be a field, then $K[x_1, x_2, \dots ]$ is not Noetherian, since the chain $(x_1) \subseteq (x_1, x_2) \subseteq \dots $ never stops, or not? (Wondering)
 
Deveno said:
What you want is a *counter-example*. Here is something to get you started on #1:

Any field is Noetherian, and any integral domain can be extended to a field. Can you find a non-Noetherian integral domain?

Do we maybe use the Hilbert basis theorem?
Deveno said:
For 2, consider the correspondence theorem for rings.

How exactly do we use this theorem? I got stuck righ now? (Wondering)
Deveno said:
For number 3, consider $S = \Bbb Z$. This ring is non-Artinian, can you find an Artinian ring it is a sub-ring of?

The only ideals of $\mathbb{R}$ are $0$ and $\mathbb{R}$.
So, the sequence $\mathbb{R}\supset 0$ is finite, therefore $\mathbb{R}$ is Artinian, right? (Wondering)
 

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