Superconductor in vacuum chamber - low energy consumption solution?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the feasibility of using vacuum chambers to maintain superconductors at low temperatures, exploring engineering applications and challenges associated with cooling methods. Participants examine the implications of thermal isolation and the practicality of different cooling techniques.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that placing superconductors in a vacuum chamber could reduce thermal energy through fewer collisions, suggesting additional shielding to minimize radiation loss.
  • Others argue that it may be cheaper and easier to supercool superconductors directly rather than using a vacuum chamber.
  • Concerns are raised about the size and complexity of the necessary equipment for both cooling and vacuum systems, particularly in relation to quantum computers.
  • One participant notes that blackbody radiation still affects superconductors in a vacuum and highlights existing applications of vacuum in cryogenic systems, such as those used in the LHC magnets.
  • Another participant questions the effectiveness of vacuum isolation, stating that a superconductor in a vacuum would still absorb heat from surrounding infrared radiation, potentially raising its temperature above the critical threshold.
  • Discussion includes the mechanics of cooling superconductors, specifically the use of liquid helium and the need for periodic replenishment due to evaporation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the practicality and effectiveness of using vacuum chambers for superconductors, with no consensus reached on the best approach to maintain low temperatures.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations related to thermal isolation, the impact of infrared radiation in vacuum, and the complexities of cooling systems, which remain unresolved in the discussion.

HarryHutton
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Hello all,

Superconductors are great, but obviously its tricky to keep them at such a low temperature for extended periods of time. This poses a problem for engineering applications.

What about the feasibility of cooling the superconductor, then placing the material in a vacuum chamber. Less collisions = less thermal energy. Shield the walls from radiation loss using suitable absorption such as lead or other, perhaps install a 2nd vacuum layer (double glazing as such), and voila - sustainable superconductors.
Not much can be done about dark matter or neutrinos, but as far as I'm aware they don't really interact with matter much anyway.

Thoughts?
 
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It's probably cheaper and easier to just supercool them than to place them in a high vacuum.
 
Drakkith said:
It's probably cheaper and easier to just supercool them than to place them in a high vacuum.

Yeah, well this kind of thing is a problem with the much heralded quantum computers.


The processor is really small, but have you seen the size of the fridge you need to keep it cool.
 
krd said:
Yeah, well this kind of thing is a problem with the much heralded quantum computers.


The processor is really small, but have you seen the size of the fridge you need to keep it cool.

The same goes for the vacuum equipment you would need. They aren't small either.
 
Blackbody radiation is still present. Vacuum is a common solution to isolate cold things - look at the LHC magnets, for example, part of the largest cryogenic system on earth. In addition to other layers, vacuum is used as isolation.

Magnet design

In addition, there are some concepts to use vacuum as part of an isolation for houses (in small bubbles in the material, which are usually filled with air) - it reduces the required thickness of the isolating material a lot.
 
HarryHutton said:
What about the feasibility of cooling the superconductor, then placing the material in a vacuum chamber. Less collisions = less thermal energy. Shield the walls from radiation loss using suitable absorption such as lead or other, perhaps install a 2nd vacuum layer (double glazing as such), and voila - sustainable superconductors.
Heat does not come in the form of high energy particles, so your lead shield is of no use. Vacuum is already used to surround the superconductor and its refrigerant, in the design of containment vessels (Dewars). For brief overview, read http://www.cryonics.org/cryostats.html

And by the way, HarryHutton, http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/5725/red5e5etimes5e5e45e5e25.gif
 
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Ah so its already in use? That's quite cool.

Reading that report, I am a little unclear. Is any power draw needed at all to keep the superconductors below critical temperature?
 
I must say, I don't quite understand this thread and not sure if I read it right. And this is coming from someone who has dealt with "superconductors in vacuum" throughout my graduate and postdoc research.

If one cools down a superconductor, AND, in principle, leave it isolated in a UHV environment, then YES, it still will acquire heat from the surrounding and will bring it up above Tc. Why? Because the vacuum chamber surrounding it is at room temperature, and IR can still travel in vacuum! One can try doing the same popular "levitation" demonstration in vacuum and see how long it takes before the superconductor stops levitating, and it WILL stop levitating!

If one continues to cool it down via a system of cryogenics, then by definition, the superconductor is no longer isolated because of the cooling system is in contact with a bunch of other things.

So I'm not exactly sure what is being asked here.

Zz.
 
HarryHutton said:
Ah so its already in use? That's quite cool.

Reading that report, I am a little unclear. Is any power draw needed at all to keep the superconductors below critical temperature?
The cooling mechanism is usually that you allow some of the gas (He) to boil off, and in doing so it carries away heat (as latent heat of vaporization) thereby chilling the remaining liquid He. This gradual loss means that periodically you must top up the level of liquid He. The better your insulation, the less often do you need to replenish the liquid He. So the "power" used is via imported liquified He.
 

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