Symmetry regarding induced potentials?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between induced potentials in electrostatics, particularly focusing on the assertion that the potential at one point due to a point charge is equal to the potential at another point due to induced charges on a conductor. The context includes theoretical exploration and mathematical reasoning related to electrostatic potentials and Green's Reciprocity Theorem.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the validity of the assertion that ##\bar\phi_x(y)=\bar\phi_y(x)##, noting a lack of counterexamples but also uncertainty about its evident truth.
  • One participant suggests that even if the equality holds, the relationship leading to ##\frac{q}{2} \nabla_x \phi_x(x) =- F(x)## needs further clarification.
  • Another participant references Green's Reciprocity Theorem as a basis for the assertion, providing a detailed derivation involving charge densities and potentials.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of point charges and the necessity of considering induced surface charge density on the conductor, with a note that this integration can be shown to equal zero due to the conductor's properties.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the assertion of equality between the potentials, and while some agree on the relevance of Green's Reciprocity Theorem, the discussion remains unresolved with multiple viewpoints on the implications of induced charges.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include assumptions about charge densities and boundary conditions, as well as the treatment of the conductor's surface charge density in the context of the integration.

haruspex
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TL;DR
Is it true that the potential arising at A from induced charges on conductor B from point charge q at C = that arising at C from induction on B from charge q at A?
A homework thread, https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...etal-sheet-along-a-spherical-surface.1057702/, references https://arxiv.org/pdf/1007.2175.pdf.
There is an uncharged conductor and a point charge. In the paper referenced, ##\bar\phi_y(x)## is defined as the potential at x due to the induced charges on the conductor when the point charge is at y.
As justification for eqn 10 it states that ##\bar\phi_x(y)=\bar\phi_y(x)##.
I cannot see why that should be true, but I cannot construct any counterexample.
Is it evident, or maybe some standard result?
 
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Thank you for trying to clarify this point, I had already given up hope. But even if ##\bar\phi_x(y)=\bar\phi_y(x)## were true (assume this to be true for a moment, though it remains to be verified), what obvious relationship prompts the assertion that, since ##bar\phi_x(y)=\bar\phi_y(x)##, then ##\frac{q}{2} \nabla_x \phi_x(x) =- F(x)##?
 
haruspex said:
As justification for eqn 10 it states that ##\bar\phi_x(y)=\bar\phi_y(x)##.
I cannot see why that should be true, but I cannot construct any counterexample.
Is it evident, or maybe some standard result?
This is an interesting result that can be deduced from Green's Reciprocity Theorem (see equation 5).
 
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TSny said:
This is an interesting result that can be deduced from Green's Reciprocity Theorem (see equation 5).
Darn, you just beat me to it! But I'll go ahead and post my response:
Start from two charge densities ##\rho_x,\rho_y## that give rise to two electrostatic potentials ##\phi_x,\phi_y## via Poisson's equation:$$\nabla^{2}\phi_{x}\left(z\right)=-\rho_{x}\left(z\right)/\varepsilon,\;\nabla^{2}\phi_{y}\left(z\right)=-\rho_{y}\left(z\right)/\varepsilon$$and suppose that the charge densities and fields vanish sufficiently fast at spatial infinity so that boundary terms are ignorable (in other words, the usual physicist's assumption!). Then Green's second identity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green's_identities) can be written in terms of ##\phi_1,\phi_2## as:$$0=\int\left(\phi_{x}\left(z\right)\nabla^{2}\phi_{y}\left(z\right)-\phi_{y}\left(z\right)\nabla^{2}\phi_{x}\left(z\right)\right)d^{3}z=\varepsilon^{-1}\int\left(\phi_{y}\left(z\right)\rho_{x}\left(z\right)-\phi_{x}\left(z\right)\rho_{y}\left(z\right)\right)d^{3}z$$where the integration extends over all space. This result is known in electrostatics as Green's Reciprocity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocity_(electromagnetism)). Now specialize to point charges ##\rho_{x}\left(z\right)=q_{x}\delta^{3}\left(z-x\right),\;\rho_{y}\left(z\right)=q_{y}\delta^{3}\left(z-y\right)## located at positions ##x,y##:$$0=\varepsilon^{-1}\int\left(\phi_{y}\left(z\right)q_{x}\delta^{3}\left(z-x\right)-\phi_{x}\left(z\right)q_{y}\delta^{3}\left(z-y\right)\right)d^{3}z=\varepsilon^{-1}\left(q_{x}\phi_{y}\left(x\right)-q_{y}\phi_{x}\left(y\right)\right)$$In particular, if ##q_x=q_y## (as is apparently the case in the cited external reference), then the simple reciprocal relation ##\phi_{y}\left(x\right)=\phi_{x}\left(y\right)## indeed holds.
 
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renormalize said:
Now specialize to point charges ##\rho_{x}\left(z\right)=q_{x}\delta^{3}\left(z-x\right),\;\rho_{y}\left(z\right)=q_{y}\delta^{3}\left(z-y\right)## located at positions ##x,y##:$$0=\varepsilon^{-1}\int\left(\phi_{y}\left(z\right)q_{x}\delta^{3}\left(z-x\right)-\phi_{x}\left(z\right)q_{y}\delta^{3}\left(z-y\right)\right)d^{3}z=\varepsilon^{-1}\left(q_{x}\phi_{y}\left(x\right)-q_{y}\phi_{x}\left(y\right)\right)$$In particular, if ##q_x=q_y## (as is apparently the case in the cited external reference), then the simple reciprocal relation ##\phi_{y}\left(x\right)=\phi_{x}\left(y\right)## indeed holds.
OK. But, besides the point charge, there will also be induced surface charge density on the conductor. So, the integration over ##\rho## should include integration over the surface of the conductor. However, you can show this integration equals zero using the fact that the conductor's surface is an equipotential surface and the net charge on the surface is zero.
 

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