The Buddhist bane of social obligation

[Canute]

Polly

Thanks for the extract. I've got the book it but forgot what it said. Ignore TenYears' insults. (In that book I felt the HHDL sounded a lot more plausible than the scientists at the meeting, who just waffle techno-babble if I remember right).

I agree with ToSon that compassion is not the same as insight. I suspect that insight is knowing the cosmological reasons for practicing compassion.

As to subtle consiousness beyond brain I feel it has to be the case. The 'problem of consciousness' seems insolvable otherwise. As I may have already said (getting my threads muddled), the problem is such that even a 'scientific' philosopher like Colin McGinn now argues that consciousness may have originated in a pre-spatial reality prior to the BB.

Jesus said: "If the flesh was produced because of of the spirit, it is a wonder. But if the spirit was produced because of the body, it is a wonderous wonder." Gospel of Thomas

 

[Polly]

Thank you. I received my first lesson from Ivan Seeking on egolessness when I first bummed into the forum two months ago, and now I thank Tenyears for his chastising lesson on selflessness. Everything happens for the best.

Yes I am sure you and To Son are right about Insight. It was just that you being a super intelligent lot I never felt it necessary to point out what you all have been doing so well .

 

[TENYEARS]

Polly, if you think anyone on this forum is super intelligent you are lost. If you think anyone ont his forum is not are you are still lost. The truth will come from within you around you. To think is good, and to think with single hearted desire is what creates the vacuum for the truth to be experienced. To hell with all authors if what you have is belief, but if your path is different, who am I to say it cannot be found in this way. There are many spokes to the hubless hub. Find your true way and when you are high on life, close all the doors and accept nothing but the truth. The truth will show itself.

 

[Polly]

Thank you Tenyears. I shall not pretend I fully understand what you are talking about but this is what I felt. I take stock of my spiritual development every now and then. Just when I was getting a bit disapointed with the progress in the past two months, I got you! Thank you. What you said was shattering, I was red and shaken while and after reading it, but it advanced me some lengths ahead. There is no Polly, no Tenyears, no Ole Drunk and yes no Canute. I do need to have that realisation hit hard on my head every 3 minutes, every one minute. What To Son said about the aggregates was also a power reminder.

I shall remind you as I constantly remind myself. Be patient, be patient, we are all in the process of getting there, all in the course of getting there. Be patient.

 

[Canute]

Polly

Have you read any Thomas Merton or Agnes Martin?

 

[Polly]

No actually. I am struggling with the relationship between alaya vijnana and bhuta tathata at present while reading on and off The Self Aware Universe .

 

[Canute]

Just an idle thought. I seem to remember that you have a Catholic background. I thought Merton, a Trappist monk, would be interesting because he ended up pretty sold on Buddhism but writes about it in Catholic terms. He's a favourite of a friend who spent twelve years as a Carmelite nun before becoming a Buddhist.

 

[Polly]

Thank you very much for your reply and very sorry for my previous curt answer. I was multi-thinking and needless to say didn't manage to think anything through and was therefore a bit crabby.

Ha ha I honestly did not realize so many physicists or Westerners are interested in Buddhism until I found PF.

Yes I received my primary and secondary education in a very good convent school and my life would be totally different if it were not for a very kind father and a very kind nun who decided to admit me to P. 4 despite my lousy standard at the time (I did my P. 1-3 in a fishermen's school). My father is an atheist, my mother a devoted catholic and my younger brother a most devoted protestant. Until I read the Gospel of Mary that you introduced in another thread, religious discussion was impossible in our family (so you see we can never quite realize the full impact of our action and thank you again). Some months after my admission, I was in the playground waiting to be taken home. It was chilly and getting dark and a sister very kindly asked me to go up to her office and offered me hot tea in a very nice cup with saucer and a warm piece of butter cake. I guess it is hard to show kindness if one has never seen it, I am very lucky because I have seen it. I think the Catholic missionary did a fantasic job in building schools and providing handouts to the poor in the past, I for one, was certaily one of the many beneficiaries of their kindness and good work. Buddhists pale in terms of missionary work.

I searched Merton on-line and must say I don't really feel informed enough to comment on him, except perhaps I agree it would be futile to approach the Bible with slavish adhesion and dissect it with surgery precision. Sometimes I feel that the OT is a compilation by a 6 year old of the the utterance (and admonition) of his father and the NT is an account given by him when he is 8 years old. What the father can say, has to say, does say depends on the capacity of the boy, the account by no means reflects the father completely and faithfully, and even more allowance has to be made for the myraid of mistranslation and egoistic edition.

I hope the above will not get the thread closed .

 

[TENYEARS]

I have a book for you "No Self" still it's only a book. Only when you see your reflection in the pages will it mean anything.

This was also a phsyical book and a good one.

 

[Polly]

Believe me Tenyears, I have been working on no-self since your previous post and the initial revelation. Old thinking habits die hard I agree. But you see I have also been reading up on alaya vijnana (the eighth type of consciousness) so hopefully no-self will transform from a rare and serendipitous occurence to a rational understanding and therefore retrievable anytime by the mind. You know something? this morning, when I was marching with other commuters to work, instead of finding us sorry robots I saw us lustrious pearls, only temporarily sullied. What a happy thought!

 

[quddusaliquddus]

OK guys. If you don't mind me asking. Me - having ZERO knowledge of Buddhism - have found many similarities in what you are saying in relation to Sufism.

I've was just wondering - does buddhism say if learning about buddhism e.g. book reading etc ... can get in the way of actual progress - experientially (if that's the right spelling!). It's just that it's said in Sufism quiet a bit.

 

[Canute]

OK guys. If you don't mind me asking. Me - having ZERO knowledge of Buddhism - have found many similarities in what you are saying in relation to Sufism.

I've was just wondering - does buddhism say if learning about buddhism e.g. book reading etc ... can get in the way of actual progress - experientially (if that's the right spelling!). It's just that it's said in Sufism quiet a bit.

I don't know Sufism but it's time I did so I'll check it out.

Yes, books are very definitely said to get in the way in Buddhism. There are many stories of people going out and burning all their books on becoming enlightened, and many greatly respected masters who have not been able to read or write.

 

[Canute]

Polly

Ha ha I honestly did not realize so many physicists or Westerners are interested in Buddhism until I found PF.

You might like to check out Erwin Schroedinger on this. Remarkable guy.

 

[quddusaliquddus]

It's very interesting - the similarities between religions and mysticism of the world. Confirms what the real masters know and we repeat - that in essence there aren't differences.
Does Buddhism talk of other religions either before or after it?

 

[Canute]

It's not strictly a religion but yes, an infinite number of them in fact, in an infinite number of universes in the infinite past and infinite future.

 

[quddusaliquddus]

Hmmm ...

It's not strictly a religion but yes, an infinite number of them in fact, in an infinite number of universes in the infinite past and infinite future.

Interesting.

 

[Polly]

Hello,

Very sorry, I did not check the User CP the last few days and therefore did not realize that this thread is still alive. I thought I had very successfully bored everyone to death .

With regard to books or learning getting into the way of enlightenment, I have to slightly disagree with learned Canute. Yes they get in the way but only with regard to people with excellent aptitude and outstanding attainment accumulated over numerous previous lives. A bit like reciepes are useless to a gifted and experienced cook because they "just know". But if you have never cooked before, receipes and cooking tipes are still very useful if not essential.

Erwin Schroedinger, was he the guy who had a cat that was both dead and alive? Was he buddhist? Interesting.

 

[quddusaliquddus]

...

You can bore us to death Polly - as long as we reincarnate into something better :D

With regard to books or learning getting into the way of enlightenment, I have to slightly disagree with learned Canute. Yes they get in the way but only with regard to people with excellent aptitude and outstanding attainment accumulated over numerous previous lives. A bit like recipes are useless to a gifted and experienced cook because they "just know". But if you have never cooked before, recipes and cooking tips are still very useful if not essential.

It's interesting that you should use the analogy of cooking. An essential Sufi saying is that "He who tastes, knows". In my opinion - A sufi would say that books are useful, so is any other method that introduces us to the path. But, when they start to condition the person beyond repare - they will just walk around in intellectual circles never breaking the 'cycle' of hell they're in.

I don't really know the position of the Buddhist Master. Is he an essential ''ingredient" in reaching enlightenment?

What is the position of the enlightened one in socety - after reaching his goal? To Sufis it is an essential element that the 'enlightened one' join socety again - social responsibility is important in fact.

[I know it's a thread about Buddhism - I hope no-one minds me exploring opinions of Sufis on the subject of enlightenment-they are very similar ot that of Buddhists (I think...)]