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mfb submitted a new PF Insights post
The Complexity of Modern Science
Continue reading the Original PF Insights Post.
The Complexity of Modern Science
Continue reading the Original PF Insights Post.
So first of all, I find this insight to be very interesting. However, as a crackpot by some definitions, I must disagree with you and phinds on one point. I do study actual science and calculus with that science. I learned on this forum to stay away from popsci, but still, I come up with "theories". No, as a middle schooler I do not believe these theories will go anywhere. What I do is I make a theory based on math and what I have learned so far from other sources, and then I look for what I did wrong. Sometimes I need to ask a professional about what I did wrong. In fact, I learn better from actually thinking about it and then finding a problem in my thinking and/or math. I do agree that some people do need to learn real science before making a statement like "special relativity is wrong" but some people (like me) learn from thinking, challenging the theories and finding out why I'm wrong. Just something to think about. Overall, however, a great insight.phinds said:I think the biggest problem is that people find it SO much easier to watch pop science on TV than to do any actual study of science, and you know how those shows get so much wrong. I think they do sometimes inspire young people to study but overall I'm not sure but what they do more harm than good and they certainly give those adults who are not likely to further pursue actual science a very poor view of actual science of the kind you talk about. The producers of the TV shows can't be blamed for this any more than McDonalds can be blamed for serving tasty junk food. People sell what other people buy and there are lots of buyers for junk food and junk science, especially since they LOOK so tasty, what with all the nifty graphics and tomato sauce and all.
The first thing we COULD do (and won't) would be to insist that people who teach science, at any level but particularly below the college level, be required to have at least some idea what they are talking about. Teachers below the high school level in particular have no idea, generally, what science is really all about.
That is perfectly fine, as long as challenging the theories is based on actual knowledge of those theories.Isaac0427 said:but some people (like me) learn from thinking, challenging the theories and finding out why I'm wrong.
On the actual insights page it turned out differently.mfb said:I don't see what would be wrong with the quote
I do not find that to be at all in disagree w/ my statements or beliefs and in fact I think it's a fine way to forge ahead in science for someone your age. It keeps you interested but as long as you stay grounded in the knowledge that your theories are based, at this level of your development, more in ignorance than in knowledge, then you are using your process as a learning tool and that's great.Isaac0427 said:So first of all, I find this insight to be very interesting. However, as a crackpot by some definitions, I must disagree with you and phinds on one point. I do study actual science and calculus with that science. I learned on this forum to stay away from popsci, but still, I come up with "theories". No, as a middle schooler I do not believe these theories will go anywhere. What I do is I make a theory based on math and what I have learned so far from other sources, and then I look for what I did wrong.
Ok, I just picked up an implication (that may or may not have been there) in both your post and the insight that these theories all come from ignorance and stubbornness to accept mainstream theories, and not from an attempt to learn more about these theories by challenging them (and I am not saying people don't create theories out of ignorance and stubbornness to accept mainstream theories, because they do). Most of what I have learned about relativity has been from challenging it and finding a list of reasons why my challenge was incorrect.phinds said:I do not find that to be at all in disagree w/ my statements or beliefs and in fact I think it's a fine way to forge ahead in science for someone your age. It keeps you interested but as long as you stay grounded in the knowledge that your theories are based, at this level of your development, more in ignorance than in knowledge, then you are using your process as a learning tool and that's great.
And we all know how great Fox News is at explaining/acknowledging proven scientific fact.Buzz Bloom said:NOVA is an excellent source for informing the public about science, but I am guessing that for each viewer of NOVA there are more than a hundred viewers of FOX NEWS.
Isaac0427 said:Ok, I just picked up an implication (that may or may not have been there) in both your post and the insight that these theories all come from ignorance and stubbornness to accept mainstream theories, and not from an attempt to learn more about these theories by challenging them (and I am not saying people don't create theories out of ignorance and stubbornness to accept mainstream theories, because they do). Most of what I have learned about relativity has been from challenging it and finding a list of reasons why my challenge was incorrect.
Unfortunately you are using theory in the layman's sense. What you are coming up with are at best hypotheses. It is good to think up new ideas but calling them theories without rigorous testing does an injustice to science.Isaac0427 said:So first of all, I find this insight to be very interesting. However, as a crackpot by some definitions, I must disagree with you and phinds on one point. I do study actual science and calculus with that science. I learned on this forum to stay away from popsci, but still, I come up with "theories". No, as a middle schooler I do not believe these theories will go anywhere. What I do is I make a theory based on math and what I have learned so far from other sources, and then I look for what I did wrong. Sometimes I need to ask a professional about what I did wrong. In fact, I learn better from actually thinking about it and then finding a problem in my thinking and/or math. I do agree that some people do need to learn real science before making a statement like "special relativity is wrong" but some people (like me) learn from thinking, challenging the theories and finding out why I'm wrong. Just something to think about. Overall, however, a great insight.phinds said:I think the biggest problem is that people find it SO much easier to watch pop science on TV than to do any actual study of science, and you know how those shows get so much wrong. I think they do sometimes inspire young people to study but overall I'm not sure but what they do more harm than good and they certainly give those adults who are not likely to further pursue actual science a very poor view of actual science of the kind you talk about. The producers of the TV shows can't be blamed for this any more than McDonalds can be blamed for serving tasty junk food. People sell what other people buy and there are lots of buyers for junk food and junk science, especially since they LOOK so tasty, what with all the nifty graphics and tomato sauce and all.
The first thing we COULD do (and won't) would be to insist that people who teach science, at any level but particularly below the college level, be required to have at least some idea what they are talking about. Teachers below the high school level in particular have no idea, generally, what science is really all about.
I think Richard Feynman did a great job of accurately explaining concepts to lay people without loosing them in the math. That's a very difficult thing to do, but that does not mean that it can't be done, or that it should not be attempted. It should.Greg Bernhardt said:As we've seen in the thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...is-not-weird-unless-presented-as-such.850860/ most concepts can't be genuinely described using word language. Susskind also mentioned this in an interview I watched where the interviewer asked some quantum mechanics question and Susskind basically said he couldn't answer it with words, only in math. Not long ago I debated a man who claimed to understand the concepts of the Big Bang very well and didn't need to know the math. I promptly left the conversation. Fact is that the general public certainty can't handle or have the patience for reading research papers so pop sci news agencies water the research down into cookie cutter pieces with catchy headlines which in the end only vaguely resemble what it really means. This is good for the public's imagination but doesn't do justice for how complex their research is.
I agree with most of you assessment. Now how about offering solutions.Hornbein said:A substantial majority of
People believe what they want to believe.
They disregard information/misinformation that contradicts what they believe.
They absorb information/misinformation that reinforces what they believe.
What they believe is usually self-flattering.
They choose a person or organization in which to place their trust. They believe all information/misinformation that issues from this source.
Corollary:
Sources of flattering information are more likely to earn such trust.
To believe that you easily have come up with a simple insight that a thousands of hard-working geniuses have missed is very self-flattering.
To believe that you are ignorant and incompetent in some area is anti-self-flattering.
Ergo, crackpottery is a basic human tendency.
You can coerce a student into learning, but each student is free disbelieve in or subsequently forget what was learned. Once no longer a student, untrusted sources no longer have any power over their learning or beliefs.
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I think the educational system is obsolete, ineffective, inflicts pain on the student, and needs a complete overhaul. It has hardly changed since ancient times. Can you blame people for hating it? There is room for improvement.
Yes, it is more of a hypothesis than a theory.rbelli1 said:Unfortunately you are using theory in the layman's sense. What you are coming up with are at best hypotheses. It is good to think up new ideas but calling them theories without rigorous testing does an injustice to science.
BoB
Is it? If it was, we would not have a forum for relativity, biology, chemistry, homework help, etc.Jeff Rosenbury said:Physics Forum is dedicated to advancing the standard model.
I think it was intended to say the standards which physics forums holds as standard consensus of mainstream science in each category?Isaac0427 said:Is it? If it was, we would not have a forum for relativity, biology, chemistry, homework help, etc.
Choppy said:
- Scientists volunteering time to go out into the community: giving public lectures, coming into classrooms, and speaking to teachers. I volunteer with a local program called "Scientists and Engineers in the Classroom" because I think programs like this are very important for helping studends and teachers learn about how science happens.
Using the word theory the way you do is probably what sets off crackpot alarms if you've been accused of being a crackpot. I tend to roll my eyes when someone claims to be developing a new theory.Isaac0427 said:So first of all, I find this insight to be very interesting. However, as a crackpot by some definitions, I must disagree with you and phinds on one point. I do study actual science and calculus with that science. I learned on this forum to stay away from popsci, but still, I come up with "theories". No, as a middle schooler I do not believe these theories will go anywhere. What I do is I make a theory based on math and what I have learned so far from other sources, and then I look for what I did wrong. Sometimes I need to ask a professional about what I did wrong. In fact, I learn better from actually thinking about it and then finding a problem in my thinking and/or math. I do agree that some people do need to learn real science before making a statement like "special relativity is wrong" but some people (like me) learn from thinking, challenging the theories and finding out why I'm wrong. Just something to think about. Overall, however, a great insight.
Yes, as I said, it's more of a hypothesis.vela said:Using the word theory the way you do is probably what sets off crackpot alarms if you've been accused of being a crackpot. I tend to roll my eyes when someone claims to be developing a new theory.
From what you describe, I'd say you're constructing your understanding and knowledge of a topic, not a new theory. One way you do that is to take your current understanding and test it. When you encounter non-sensical or puzzling results, you figure out where you went wrong with your reasoning or where your understanding of a topic may have been flawed and try to resolve the inconsistency. That's completely normal. That's how you learn. The hallmark of the crackpot, though, is the refusal to learn from one's mistakes. According to them, their understanding isn't wrong; everyone else's is. This is the mistake you want to avoid.
The insight touches on what allows the crackpot to even entertain the idea that they're right and everyone else is wrong. Part of that is not understanding the process of science. When you don't understand all of the work that goes into research and what the research actually says, it becomes easy to dismiss established scientific knowledge and theories as being based on someone's whims.
Choppy said:"What do you think? Can science popularisation improve in that aspect, and if yes, how?"
I think one big thing that can help is for scientists themselves to talk more openly about what they do. The scientific community can't rely on the entertainment industry to popularize science, and then complain when they get it wrong. Nor can the scientific community hope that politicians won't spin their work and results to reinforce their agendas.
1. They didn't learn it in high school.ComplexVar89 said:What do people have against relativity?
Jeff Rosenbury said:I think we need a new economic model for an intellectual economy. Our legal and social values were developed for an industrial economy. They reward behaviors that produce real goods. Mass market art (T.V., etc.) is aimed at keeping producing workers healthy and happy. Science (and less banal art) is poorly rewarded unless it supports those now non-functional goals.
Jeff Rosenbury said:The idea that scientists should be required to volunteer to act as teachers seems odd to me. The two jobs are quite different (at least on the general public level). Would we ask a carpenter to volunteer his time to explain how the joists were laid in a new house before it could be sold?
Jeff Rosenbury said:Scientists have historically made good money when they could leverage their high IQs to manipulate the system. But otherwise they tend to lag behind other professions requiring similar levels of learning/talents. To me this indicates a flaw in the economic system that needs fixing, not that scientists should become media manipulators.
Something like this. Specifically what's wrong is that most scientists seem to be suffering a very bad case of "curse of knowledge." Knowing what they know, they can't conceive of a mind that doesn't also know it, and they don't have any idea what that mind needs to hear to understand what science is actually up to.Choppy said:I think one big thing that can help is for scientists themselves to talk more openly about what they do. The scientific community can't rely on the entertainment industry to popularize science, and then complain when they get it wrong.