The Dangers of White Supremacy Ideology in America

[bobf]

I have to admit, I cannot talk much on this issue because I do not know the history of Africa. But, for those who do know the history of Africa, how have the blacks in Africa fared compared to the blacks in America? I know that in certain parts of Africa, blacks are still enslaved by blacks. Who is going to provided compensation for the blacks who are still enslaved by blacks in Africa?

 

[Monique]

I still really wonder what the purpose of this thread is.

I´m afraid this will be a discussion without an end.

NoahAfrican: you started the thread, what exactly is it that you want to accomplish?

 

[BlackVision]

You know, I came across some interesting information on this topic. My teacher posed the theory that blacks in America and Canada were at the bottom of the SES due to slavery. Well, after digging up some information I found something interesting. Blacks that were once slaves in Canada and were decedents of slaves fared better economically and performed better in college then blacks that came from other black countries and were never slaves. It seems to discredit the slave theory.
Here is that paper:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/studies/11-008/feature/11-008-XIE20030046802.pdf

Uh oh, what can NoahAfrican argue now.

 

[BlackVision]

I agree that the black slaves started their freedom with a serious handicap, one that cannot be compared to people of other cultures that immigrated here of their own will.

European Jews after World War II. They had nothing. No possessions, no money. And were still heavily discriminated against even after the war was over. Would you consider this a handicap?

It is also to note that after slavery was abolished, EVERY black person in America had the full right to go back to Africa. An option that virtually no blacks took including ones that lived in America for a very short period.

 

[NoahAfrican]

Monique you want to know the motive of this topic…do not make things to complicated…it is simply to promote conversation and the learning that can only manifest via conversation. I have this crazy idea that the best way to know what people think is to converse with them…stupid me.

I do not have the software to review the link on Canada statistics. However, one must be careful in comparing black populations. I do not that the Caribbean accounts as the origin of many black Canadians. Thus, their ancestors were indeed slaves, much longer, if I might suggest, than that of Canadian blacks whose ancestors were enslaved in Canada. Thus, the comparison to Caribbean’s is likely invalid.

When one looks at the African immigrants, one has to separate them by the means of their visas. Those who come as refugees usually do poorly and I think that the majority of African immigrants to Canada may be refugees. They usually are not fluent in the language and do not have a lot of education. Thus, one would expect that they fare poorer than people who have been in a nation for centuries. However, there are the Africans that come on student visa, or via the visa lottery system. These blacks are usually well educated and from the elite segments of their nations. They, in turn, usually do pretty well.

IN the case of the USA, both those from the Caribbean and Africa have higher median incomes than blacks Americans. I am not sure why those from the Caribbean have higher median incomes, but the Africans are usually better educated, because there entry into the country is filtered by education. Those Africans who come into the nation as refugees usually are not well educated and thus have lower incomes.

Someone said that whites were slaves to. That is no revelation because the term slave is a derivative of the Slavic people of Eastern Europe who were oppressed so that they coined a term after them. Most oppressed groups of people generally rose out of their oppression via migration from the lands and people who oppressed them, then finding another group of people to oppress to then lift themselves up. That is certainly the history of the oppressed of Europe. Until the discovery of the new world and colonization, the masses of Europe were oppressed by the aristocracy and monarchies. Land was the major source of power and wealth and all the land in Europe was controlled by an elite few who oppressed the masses. The new world offer new opportunities. Land, Labor and Capital have been the pillars of Western capitalism. The new world provided land taken by aggression from natives (whites testosterone levels must have been really high then), and African slaves for labor. Thus, those, whites lifted themselves up by virtue of putting others down. That has been the most successful means of advancement in human history…bar none. There was nothing virtuous about how whites did it…and may I add…I would not want to see blacks follow that example.

 

[Evo]

Uh oh, what can NoahAfrican argue now.

Shows without a doubt that environment and opportunity override any genetic influence.

Or are you now going to try to back track and say that this group of blacks had different genes?

 

[Evo]

European Jews after World War II. They had nothing. No possessions, no money. And were still heavily discriminated against even after the war was over. Would you consider this a handicap?

Yes, but not as much as the black slaves here had to deal with. Unlike the Jewish that had education, contacts, family abroad, business savvy, etc..., the black slaves had none of this.

 

[Dagenais]

Blacks that were once slaves in Canada and were decedents of slaves fared better economically and performed better in college then blacks that came from other black countries and were never slaves. It seems to discredit the slave theory.

Canada had slavery?

I was told that Canada's history was without black slaves (legally)!

 

[bobf]

How do the indentured servants play into this scenario? From what I learned in history, they were actually treated worse than black slaves because they were only owned for a certain amount of years. Just thought I would add that in there as well. What about Africans in Africa, are they as well off as African Americans?

 

[Evo]

How do the indentured servants play into this scenario? From what I learned in history, they were actually treated worse than black slaves because they were only owned for a certain amount of years. Just thought I would add that in there as well.

Actually, they were treated better.

From the PBS documentary below "All were indentured servants. During their time as servants, they were fed and housed. Afterwards, they would be given what were known as "freedom dues," which usually included a piece of land and supplies, including a gun. Black-skinned or white-skinned, they became free."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part1/1narr3.html

 

[bobf]

Boy I wish I would have kept that college text, from what I read they were treated worse. Anyway, I am gone, thanks for the discussion.

Bob

 

[BlackVision]

Shows without a doubt that environment and opportunity override any genetic influence.

Or are you now going to try to back track and say that this group of blacks had different genes?

North American Blacks have substantial amount of White Ancestry. Are you going to deny this? So yes of course North American Blacks will have different genes.

Also if I'm not mistaken, NoahAfrican was attempting to argue that blacks with slavery in their ancestry would perform worst in SES, criminal statistics, etc than blacks who do not have any slavery in their ancestry. You then agree that this is false correct?

And you must be severely questioned if you honestly believe from that article you think without a doubt, environment overrides genetical factors. Where is all the evidence from that article that refutes all the genetical evidence for human behavior? Let me check again, oh yes NONE. But yes it still without a doubt shows environment overrides genetical factors. Not exactly the approach a true scientist will make.

By the way, why do Asians in America, the majority which are foreign born, still on average earn more than a Native White? Why do Asians have a higher rate of college graduates than Whites when it is the group that has by far the highest percentage of "foreign born"?

 

[BlackVision]

Yes, but not as much as the black slaves here had to deal with. Unlike the Jewish that had education, contacts, family abroad, business savvy, etc..., the black slaves had none of this.

What?!? What contacts did the Jewish people have after the Holocaust of WWII? I think, I THINK all the Jews of German occupied territory were rounded up and sent to either working camps (aka slavery) or death camps (aka worst than slavery). Sorry but the Jews after WWII had a far worst card than Blacks did after slavery.

 

[Monique]

By the way, why do Asians in America, the majority which are foreign born, still on average earn more than a Native White? Why do Asians have a higher rate of college graduation than Whites when it is the group that has by far the highest percentage of "foreign born"?

From personal experience I would say, that they know where they'll end up if they don't do their best. What I've seen: they take care of the family that is still in their home-country, they need to work harder to be able to do that. It's high motivation.

Since I knew people that fit your discription: I don't think they were necessarily smarter in any way; they were very motivated by their background.

 

[Evo]

North American Blacks have substantial amount of White Ancestry. Are you going to deny this? So yes of course North American Blacks will have different genes.

They didn't back when they were brought over as slaves. Also, adding white genes, if your theory about white genes being superior, should have improved the level of blacks here, obviously that isn't the case, according to your claims. So this hurts your argument even more.

Also if I'm not mistaken, NoahAfrican was attempting to argue that blacks with slavery in their ancestry would perform worst in SES, criminal statistics, etc than blacks who do not have any slavery in their ancestry. You then agree that this is false correct?

I haven't read all of his posts, the ones I've read he is addressing black slavery in America. The slaves in Canada would have had better opportunities and less oppression than the black slaves in the US, therefore more opportunity for success.

And you must be severely questioned if you honestly believe from that article you think without a doubt, environment overrides genetical factors. Where is all the evidence from that article that refutes all the genetical evidence for human behavior? Let me check again, oh yes NONE. But yes it still without a doubt shows environment overrides genetical factors. Not exactly the approach a true scientist will make.

I'm making a point that you tend to blurt out things that are either wrong or are unsubstantiated. Obviously the conditions for the blacks in Canada were more favorable for success. That article throws a wrench in your argument.

 

[Evo]

What?!? What contacts did the Jewish people have after the Holocaust of WWII? I think, I THINK all the Jews of German occupied territory were rounded up and sent to either working camps (aka slavery) or death camps (aka worst than slavery). Sorry but the Jews after WWII had a far worst card than Blacks did after slavery.

Well, you think wrong. Are you actually going to say that you don't know that Jews living in German occupied territory had relatives living in other parts of the world? Are you not aware that even though some family members ended up in concentration camps there were families that sent members to other countries to live? You really need to get a better understanding of things that you discuss. Yes, the Jews suffered terribly, but, for the reasons I listed, they were better equipped to bounce back.

This is why I do not care to discuss things with you BV. You constantly blurt out innacurate information that has to be corrected. It is too time consuming for me.

I know that you are just a young kid in college, but if you would slow down, think things through, listen to others - they may actually know something, you might learn something, maybe you will turn out ok.

 

[NoahAfrican]

Good to see a representative of truth manifesting as Evo. People are always talking about the Asian performance. One, most Asians in the USA are concentrated in states and regions where the cost of living is high and the median wages are also high relative to the rest of the nation. Thus, their median income is boosted given a boost. Also, one must check the number of working adults per household, when comparing median household income. Lastly, most Asians are filtered into this country via HB1 visas and Educational interest. These usually represent the elites of their native countries. Consequently, you end up with elite Asians being compared with the aggregate averages derived from all American social strata. In the end you produce an unfair comparison. Contrast those who come on student and work visas with those who come as refugees who are generally not from elite segments of their societies. Take the Hmong from Southeast Asia. They are Asian but their performance is far below of that of Asians from India, China or South Korea.

I agree that BV is misguided. His will not even accept logical repudiation, because his beliefs are protected by emotions which subdue reasoning often.

It is encouraging to hear your rebuttals Evo

 

[Evo]

I just don't think it's right for someone on either side of an argument to take a statistic and make broad assumptions about an entire population without taking all of the other contributing factors into consideration. It's not a wise thing to do, IMHO.

When someone does something like this, I have to question their motives.

 

[Dagenais]

By the way, why do Asians in America, the majority which are foreign born, still on average earn more than a Native White? Why do Asians have a higher rate of college graduates than Whites when it is the group that has by far the highest percentage of "foreign born"?

You should be asking, as a minority, why can't African-Americans do this?

If anything, African-Americans have more opportunities than Asians, plus English is their first (and sometimes) only language.

Since I knew people that fit your discription: I don't think they were necessarily smarter in any way; they were very motivated by their background.

No, I'd say they are smarter.

They're bilingual, make a better living and have more college graduates?

How is that not smarter?

I haven't read all of his posts, the ones I've read he is addressing black slavery in America. The slaves in Canada would have had better opportunities and less oppression than the black slaves in the US, therefore more opportunity for success.

Are you absolutely positive that Canada had African-American slaves? Most American slaves fleed to Canada in search of freedom.

Also, one must check the number of working adults per household, when comparing median household income.

So you're implying that only 1 person works in an African-American household while 2 works in an Asian?

When that's completely wrong. It's extremely common in the Asian household that the husband is the only one that works while the wife takes care of the Children.

These usually represent the elites of their native countries

Oh yes, every Asian in US, elite - every Asian in Asia, dumb. That must explain it!

One, most Asians in the USA are concentrated in states and regions where the cost of living is high and the median wages are also high relative to the rest of the nation.

You can't just earn a high-income because you live in a nice neighborhood. That's absolutely ridiculous. You think that you're going to get a high paying job just because your cost of living is high?! Then we all might as well move to Bel-air, and get high-paying jobs!

 

[Monique]

sigh...

 

[chroot]

By the way, why do Asians in America, the majority which are foreign born, still on average earn more than a Native White?

This is a selection effect known as "brain drain," and is seen in many Indian and Asian subcultures. These foreign-born people receive advanced education in their home countries and then are offered high paying jobs (with a concomitant high quality of life) in the US, so they relocate. The lesser-educated ones don't get offered such jobs, and stay in their home countries.

This effect does not support the argument that Indians and Asians are in any way inherently superior to any other race or subculture.

- Warren

 

[chroot]

Oh yes, every Asian in US, elite - every Asian in Asia, dumb. That must explain it!

Not every. Many. Many foreign-born Asians and Indians are in the US only because they are intelligent and educated, and got jobs here. Certainly those people on H1B visas are in the US solely due to their intelligence and education.

- Warren

 

[NoahAfrican]

I think a lot of people dismiss the psychological effects of the African American oppression in this nation. You must remember that people who make the choice to immigrate do so with the spirit and expectation that the new place offers a better life. The African American has never had that experience because America is the land that broke the spirits of many our people. If one ties and elephant to a tree with a rope when it is young, it will struggle to break free but cannot. Later, when the elephant matures, it is bound by the same rope only because it has been psychologically conditioned to believe that it cannot break free. There are many opportunities in America, however, blacks are generally segregated from them and still bound by the belief that they are being held down.

Every action produces a reaction. The oppression of blacks produced economical, physical and psychological reactions upon black people, which explains the black behavior of today.

In many most poorer nations, a household often has many extended family members living together. Sharing helps promote survival in those nations. When many immigrants come to America, they initially do the same thing until they get on their feet. Thus, you have Asian, Mexican and African immigrants opening up their home when a new arrival comes. They become employed, increasing the household income. I know this is a fact and do not need a cosigner to it.

Yes, Asian who come here are mostly elite who come on work visas. Many people from India enter this nation on HB1 visas for the technical expertise and end up becoming citizens. Others come as students and end up staying after being recruited by a company, or marrying a US citizen. That is a FACT. This does not mean that other Asians are dumb, it means that they were not in the proper social class to receive the advantage of a good education and thus compete to make it to America. Your statements are asinine.

Also, you should educate yourself to the fact that pay differs by regions for the same work, based upon the market forces of supply and demand for labor in those particular areas. A Burger King job likely pays more in San Jose California than in does in Jackson Mississippi. Thus, the income of a burking worker in San Jose will be higher than that worker in Jackson. However, the cost of rent in Jackson is likely 350 a month, while the cost of rent in San Jose is likely 800 a month on average. Thus, just because a person has a higher income does not mean that they are doing better, because it depends on the cost of living where they are.

I am really shocked at the level of intellect and reasoning ability on a forum such as this. I thought it would be much greater.

 

[chroot]

I am really shocked at the level of intellect and reasoning ability on a forum such as this. I thought it would be much greater.

You should be shocked only at the intellect and reasoning ability of Dagenais, who made the statements you find so shocking. The rest of us have a bit more sense.

- Warren

 

[NoahAfrican]

I stand corrected...thank you.

 

[Monique]

You know, you can choose the people you want to talk to: choose wisely

 

[Dagenais]

The African American has never had that experience because America is the land that broke the spirits of many our people.

They didn't break the spirits of Asians? Paying them pennies for working with explosives to build tunnels for railways doesn't harm the human spirit?

Blacks weren't the only race to suffer in the US.

There are many opportunities in America, however, blacks are generally segregated from them and still bound by the belief that they are being held down.

Which is a ridiculous belief, when they have just as many oppurtunities if not more, than any other citizen to get an education or job.

In the US, at large American companies, you have to fill out a different, more detailed form if you want to fire an African-American. This is un-neccesary for a cacausian. That sounds unfair to me. It's due to the "I'm being held down by racists" attitude that forces large companies to have to do these unfair things to avoid lawsuits and claims of racism.

Why don't you complain about that?

That is a FACT. This does not mean that other Asians are dumb, it means that they were not in the proper social class to receive the advantage of a good education and thus compete to make it to America

What about the Asians that were born here? You know, the Asians in High School that beat-out every other race on large assessment tests like the SATs?

Are they elite immigrants?

 

[chroot]

What about the Asians that were born here? You know, the Asians in High School that beat-out every other race on large assessment tests like the SATs?

And when cornered, you just try to change the topic of discussion... grow up.

- Warren

 

[Dagenais]

And when cornered, you just try to change the topic of discussion... grow up.

Instead of falsely accusing me, you may actually want to take a look at where the topic of Asians started, and what the topic of Asians is:

By the way, why do Asians in America, the majority which are foreign born, still on average earn more than a Native White? Why do Asians have a higher rate of college graduates than Whites when it is the group that has by far the highest percentage of "foreign born"?

Asians in America, started by BlackVision.

How am I off topic?

 

[chroot]

By the way, why do Asians in America, the majority which are foreign born, still on average earn more than a Native White?

How am I off topic?

Because BlackVision's question has been resoundingly, inarguably answered. And rather than just accepting the fact that you were wrong and didn't know about brain drain, etc., you have chosen to change the topic to domestic-born Asians.

- Warren