The divergence operator in a rotated reference frame

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the invariance of the divergence operator under rotation of the reference frame. Participants explore different approaches to prove this invariance, including matrix notation and transformations of basis vectors and derivatives. The scope includes theoretical aspects of vector calculus and transformations in multiple dimensions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes to prove the invariance of the divergence operator itself, suggesting that matrix notation could simplify the proof.
  • Another participant notes that derivatives and basis vectors transform in a covariant manner, which leads to a resolution of the initial confusion regarding the transformation.
  • One participant suggests that tedious algebra can be avoided by using vector calculus, while another counters that their method is valid for all dimensions and avoids explicit calculations.
  • Another participant mentions that the problem might be easier to tackle in polar coordinates, indicating a potential alternative approach.
  • One participant expresses appreciation for a more explicit method that helps build intuition, while acknowledging the generalization of the other approach.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing opinions on the best approach to prove the invariance of the divergence operator, with some favoring explicit calculations and others preferring more general notation. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the optimal method for proving the invariance.

Contextual Notes

Some participants mention the complexity of transformations and the potential for different coordinate systems, indicating that assumptions about the dimensionality and coordinate systems may affect the discussion.

nonequilibrium
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One can easily prove that \nabla \cdot f is invariant under a rotation of the reference frame, however I would like to prove that the divergence operator itself is invariant (same principle, different approach). In other words I want to prove that \mathbf \nabla = \mathbf e_x \frac{\partial}{\partial x} + \mathbf e_y \frac{\partial}{\partial y} = \mathbf e_{x'} \frac{\partial}{\partial x'} + \mathbf e_{y'} \frac{\partial}{\partial y'} where \mathbf r' = U \mathbf r is a coordinate transformation with U orthogonal.

I think matrix notation will simplify things. Rewrite \nabla = \mathbf e^T \cdot \partial where we define \mathbf e = \left( \begin{align} \mathbf e_x \\ \mathbf e_y \end{align}\right) and \partial = \left( \begin{align} \partial_x \\ \partial_y \end{align} \right).

If I remember correctly, the basis transformation is the inverse of the coordinate transformation, i.e. \mathbf e = U \mathbf e'. Also, one can easily check that \partial = U^T \partial' (e.g. \partial_{x} = \frac{\partial x'}{\partial x} \partial_{x'} + \frac{\partial y'}{\partial x} \partial_{y'} = U_{11} \partial_{x'} + U_{21} \partial_{y'})

This gives that \nabla = \mathbf e^T \cdot \partial = \left( U \mathbf e' \right)^T \cdot \left( U^T \partial' \right) = \mathbf e'^T \; U^T U^T \; \partial' \neq \mathbf e'^T \cdot \partial'

Where did I err?
 
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Actually, googling it a bit, it seems derivatives and basis vectors transform the same way (apparently called "covariantly", although I'm not yet familiar with such language).

So in that case \mathbf e = U^T \mathbf e' and things work out, i.e. \nabla = \mathbf e^T \cdot \partial = \mathbf e'^T \cdot \partial '
 
Just bust out some sines and cosines and you should find it all falls out after a bit of tedious algebra.
 
Seems like bad advice, the whole notion of vector calculus was invented to avoid the tedious algebra. Anyway it seems I was able to work it out as shown in my previous post.
 
I say tedious, it's like four lines:
x' = xcos(t) + ysin(t)
y' = -xsin(t) + ycos(t)

(same for the vectors only you have e1 for x and e2 for y)

then just plug in and substitute d/dx = cos(t)d/dx' + sin(t)d/dy' and also for d/dy and you're done :)
 
Oh first off, my previous reply was a bit "harsh" but I thought I was replying to another thread, in a different context (but also happened to be about vector calculus), so anyway sorry about that.

As for your suggestion: I don't see how that requires less work? You seem to be taking the same steps I did? Also my notation makes it valid for all dimensions, which is a nice perk, and also I don't have to explicitly calculate any products, so I'd say my calculations are neater.
 
This might be easier to do in polar coordinates. Just a wild guess off the top of my head.
 
To be fair, your method is actually more appropriate and does generalise nicely. I just put mine forward as a nice explicit way to show that it's definitely true.

I usually go explicit first in the simplest case, then use nicer and more general notation and then finally generalise a result. I just find it helps build the intuition along the way as nice notation often distances you from that physical interpretation of what's going on.
 

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