The Golden Rule versus the Platinum Rule

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The discussion contrasts the Golden Rule, which advocates treating others as one wishes to be treated, with the Platinum Rule, which suggests improving situations for others without expecting anything in return. Proponents of the Platinum Rule argue that it transcends the perceived selfishness of the Golden Rule, which they believe is outdated. Critics of the Platinum Rule highlight its subjective nature, questioning who determines what is "better" for others. The conversation also touches on the importance of empathy and understanding in applying these rules effectively. Ultimately, the debate centers on the ethical implications and practical applications of each rule in social interactions.

Which one?

  • Platinum Rule

    Votes: 9 60.0%
  • Golden Rule

    Votes: 6 40.0%

  • Total voters
    15
  • #51
It looks like I'm having trouble communicating my point. Maybe rephrasing will help:

Behaving in a certain way towards others is an admission that it is appropriate for them to behave the same way towards you.

The golden rule expresses an elementary idea about justice, that all people are equivalent. It doesn't indicate that any particular behavior is good or bad, it just reflects an expectation of reciprocity.

It's often invoked as an aphorism to ward off naughtiness, but I don't think that's really what it is. A dog eat dog mentality fits perfectly into the golden rule.

Anyway, my argument really is that the p-rule and the g-rule shouldn't be ranked in relation to each other because they aren't the same category of principle.
 
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  • #52
Quatl said:
It looks like I'm having trouble communicating my point. Maybe rephrasing will help:

Behaving in a certain way towards others is an admission that it is appropriate for them to behave the same way towards you.

The golden rule expresses an elementary idea about justice, that all people are equivalent. It doesn't indicate that any particular behavior is good or bad, it just reflects an expectation of reciprocity.
I agree with your description of it, I just don't think its any more useful than the other rule.
The rephrasing helps, but all people are not equivalent. Some, the disabled for instance, may not have the ability to treat others as they would like to be treated. Basically the golden rule as you describe it, is directed at those who have the power to act otherwise. So its not directed equally and doesn't then apply universally. And it doesn't address those who would like to be treated otherwise.

Its also a losing strategy if no one else wants to play by that rule.
 
  • #53
Hell_SD said:
Platinum Rule: Make it better than it was before you got there, but not because you are waiting for return.

...who's to say you made it better ?

I understand what you mean like 'the elves and the shoemaker' but I hate people messing with my stuff...

...down on my uncles farm the rule was "leave everything as you find it" otherwise you better not wait for him to return :wink:

That's true. I clean my own room & do my own laundry, and don't complain :)

I think they mean to help someone else, and make their life better, but not because you are waiting for something in return. It could also be for things, like camping (leave everything the way it was, but also if you see litter there pick that up and bring it with you too.)

I also agree that the golden rule isn't that selfish, it just implies that if you wouldn't want it done to you then chances are that somebody else wouldn't want it done to them.
 
  • #54
JoeDawg said:
I agree with your description of it, I just don't think its any more useful than the other rule.
The rephrasing helps, but all people are not equivalent. Some, the disabled for instance, may not have the ability to treat others as they would like to be treated. Basically the golden rule as you describe it, is directed at those who have the power to act otherwise. So its not directed equally and doesn't then apply universally. And it doesn't address those who would like to be treated otherwise.

Situation one: John is crippled and Joe is not
Situation two: Joe is crippled and John is not

These situations are equivalent, so Joe and John are equivalent in the sense that I mean. A person's capabilities are part of their moral interactions.

Children might be a better objection, as depending on age they don't appear to be fully capable of moral decision making.
JoeDawg said:
Its also a losing strategy if no one else wants to play by that rule.
It's not really a strategy, though it does provide part of the justification for Tit-for-Tat which certainly is.
 
  • #55
Quatl said:
Situation one: John is crippled and Joe is not
Situation two: Joe is crippled and John is not

These situations are equivalent, so Joe and John are equivalent in the sense that I mean. A person's capabilities are part of their moral interactions.

Children might be a better objection, as depending on age they don't appear to be fully capable of moral decision making.

It's not really a strategy, though it does provide part of the justification for Tit-for-Tat which certainly is.


I would say its the opposite, tit-for-tat is a successful strategy and its opening move is always cooperative, so I think this is where the G rule comes from. Its an oversimplification designed to instruct, not describe. The rule however is at best incomplete.

Its funny you mentioned children because I tend to think of the golden rule as something you tell children, who aren't capable of understanding something like tit-for-tat.
 
  • #56
Quatl said:
Situation one: John is crippled and Joe is not
Situation two: Joe is crippled and John is not

These situations are equivalent, so Joe and John are equivalent in the sense that I mean. A person's capabilities are part of their moral interactions.

Children might be a better objection, as depending on age they don't appear to be fully capable of moral decision making.

It's not really a strategy, though it does provide part of the justification for Tit-for-Tat which certainly is.

"A person´s capabilities": Well, that´s why I must insist that both rules are depending on the individual being mature enough. And that is THE point. How can you be sure of this? which certificate will you show to demonstrate that you are mature enough for discerning good from bad or better from worst?
 
  • #57
Moridin said:
Which is superior?

Golden Rule: Treat other people the same way you wish to be treated.
Platinum Rule: Make it better than it was before you got there, but not because you are waiting for return.

In my opinion, the Golden Rule is passé. Doing something good for others so that they will do good for you seems selfish. Platinum rules.
Neither is superior, which should be a third option.

I try to practice both. I try to treat people kindly and with respect, AND I endeavor to make the world a better place than when I came into it. I don't ask for anything in return, nor do I expect any reward.

I'm just passing through. :biggrin:
 
  • #58
The proper Ethics, beyond these 2 basic rules

Well, congratullations, Astronuc. I think and behave similar to you.
Now, about my previous post, I think we can debate these points for a better dialogue:

1) All is believing. You were told or you readed (which is the same) all that you know, and you decided to believe somethings, and to not believe in another things. You can say you just learned from seeing and thinking, (cogito ergo sum), but even then you are believing... in your senses and mind (remember the concept of "illusion").

2) If you accept the previous, then you can say there are 2 ways to confront reality: believing in someone else, or believing in your own power to percieve and understand the world. I really think most of us use a combination of the 2. Think that, since childhood, we were told things and that speech conditioned our way of percieving the world. When mature, we think we independize ourselves from that, but I believe we are never totally independent from the people who surrounds us. This is matter of discusion, of course. And there is the inconscious, another big issue...

3) So, every body has a "point of view" and nobody´s point of view is equal to another people´s ones. If you accept this, then how will you ensure that all people agree to what is good, bad, better...?

4) Then, if all is relative like this, I think finally that both rules are good enough but basic, because they center in what YOU BELIEVE that is good or better. So these 2 rules are the most relative of all rules.

5) Now I think we as a whole can never agree to an Ethics of good and bad that could be accepted universally. So there must be many Ethics, may be not so relative as these 2 rules, but relative to a certain aspect of reality, like professional Ethics, for instance. Well, that IS what we have today, and I think is good enough.

6) If we have Ethics relative to what we do (professional, etc.), I think these are the best type of Ethics, just because they relate to action. In sanskrit it is called dharma. Then you must consider 2 aspects of this: (a) The social position of a person, meaning his/her role in society (not his riches, i.e.) and (b) the age of a person, because time passes by and all thinks change. Considering this 2 aspects of dharma is called "varna-ashrama dharma" in sanskrit, and it is intended to be a universal kind of Ethics. Take in account that all this is still relative, because social role and age are taken in account. So it is a universal relative Ethics :wink:

7) Now the point is that you need to ensure that everyone is aware of this, and that everyone is in proper position, this means in his/her proper role. Here role is a complex word, it can mean a job, but also your family duties, so let´s concentrate in your job.

8) Normally, we all go around from job to job searching for better incomes, instead of trying to find our best. "Our best" means that job where 2 conditions meet: that I am qualified to do it, and that I feel right doing it. If I don´t feel right doing it, it´s wrong; but I must also be qualified to do it.

9) So, what we mean here is that first of all, you must KNOW YOURSELF, what qualities you have, what you like the most, and so. And that´s why I posted before that we need a system to make everybody "mature enough". In fact, those systems exist. And I will tell you this: the easiest way to know yourself, is to ask other people about how they see you. Specially, if you can find a person who knows about these matters. In occident, there are psychologists. In orient, they are called "spiritual masters". Many people needs one of these. Others prefer the "self-made" way. And I think all that is OK.
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  • #59
Moridin said:
Which is superior?

Golden Rule: Treat other people the same way you wish to be treated.
Platinum Rule: Make it better than it was before you got there, but not because you are waiting for return.

In my opinion, the Golden Rule is passé. Doing something good for others so that they will do good for you seems selfish. Platinum rules.

Yes, but you left out the possibility of doing something other people won't like (not by necessity something bad). For example, wouldn't you expect other people to judge you by your actions, and probably give you their advice for something that they feel, is wrong. This is something we do all the time - tell people how we feel about them (well, not always for their good, but just to critisize them - but still:rolleyes:).

I would agree however with the slight superiority of the Platinum rule. And that's because it relies on ones self to do something that would benefit the whole, without returns. If I can do something that I believe will make some thing better, I will and just wait to see the result (not necessarily on my self). This rule engulf the risk though that not always what we believe is good, is actually good:-p.
 
  • #60
Moridin said:
Doing something good for others so that they will do good for you seems selfish.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding in what the golden rule states
 
  • #61
JonF said:
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding in what the golden rule states

It doesn't state it, but it follows from its usage.
 
  • #62
not true, consequentialism isn't always egotism
 
  • #63
I think both rules are bogus.

Golden Rule:
If you treat others as you wish to be treated, you might do something that they don't wish. Not everyone wishes to be treated the same way, and the absolutist thinking that everyone wishes to be treated as you do is arrogant.

Platinum Rule:
Leave everything better. Whose definition of better? What's "better" to you might not be "better" for others. Again, absolutist thinking.


So I propose a new rule:

Antimatter Rule: Do unto others as they would wish done unto them, and leave things the way those who will inherit them would want them.
 
  • #64
To Xori:

If you were to treat others how you wanted to be treated, and you wanted to be treated how you wanted to be treated, then would you not treat them how they wanted to be treated given that such treatment does not violate how everyone else wants to be treated, which covers if A wants you to kill B and B doesn't want to be killed.

To the overall conversation:
The Platinum Rule has a single hole in it, and that is that it does not support self preservation. Now given a world where everyone is following it, it should apply fine. But given a world where there are some who do not follow it, the lack of self preservation can lead to self destruction. It is the simple example of the Suckers/Grudgers/Cheaters.
 

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