The jury is still out on evolution

[Ivan Seeking]

"the jury is still out" on evolution

In reality there are people who believe that all theories are mere guesses, even though that moon rock apparently helped contradict a theory that had not yet been repudiated by the church.

Similarly, President Bush says "the jury is still out" on evolution.

Agreeing with him are people in Kansas and Georgia and other places where the word "theory" means something far different than the theory spoken of in science.

In common usage, theory is an unsubstantiated guess.

I got an e-mail the other day from a reader telling me that the lights he saw as a child in the night sky over Hemet were alien star ships. Mysterious lights must be aliens. That's what we mean by theory. [continued]

http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=151471&source=r_science

 

[bross7]

Well if I had to choose between either Charles Darwin or George W. Bush for an opinion, advice, or the time of day, I think that it is painfully obvious which one it would be. When your leading argument against science is "it's bad", you don't have very much credibility with me.

 

[NEBRASKA NATURALIST]

Hey Canada!

Bush and his ilk are just corrupt politicians and anti-American, anti-science and anti-world. Forget their bull. Proceed.

Evolution's not a theory, but a fact. Leave it at that and proceed.

Try Zero-based science: don't believe anything without evidence and/or "fit" with what we know for sure. Quickly analyze everything and you'll soon see a pattern emerge. Let's call that body of knowledge "reality". Any questions?

There's no such things as god(s) or ghosts or life after death or fate or the paranormal. I just saved you a lot of time, distress, failure and error. You're welcome.

Now, knowing this, what do WE do to save the world, ourselves and all humanity?

Peace and love,
NN

 

[selfAdjoint]

Welcome to PF, Naturalist! And right on!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, the sentiment is nice but the facts are the facts, and one fact is that these are the people running the country. But more than that it speaks to the lack of confidence in science found in those who know little about it. There is in fact an anti-science mentality found in many people these days. I have said this for a long time, and it has finally come home to roost.

I know an elementary school teacher here in Oregon who teachers her students exactly what was stated: A theory [in math or science] is an unsubstantiated guess.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I guess I should add that to dismiss anything not understood as paranormal nonsense is also anti-science.

 

[NEBRASKA NATURALIST]

Hi Ivan,
I'm a bit of a primative at this stuff, but let's go. Are you after the truth and the complete truth and why? Because that's the exclusive pursuit that benefits all to the max. That established, there are two ways that science and knowledge are advanced - to say what is true and what is not true, the advancement of the latter frees up the resources to pursue the former.
No god(s) ghosts, luck fate, and paranormal. What's that leave? Science and reality, dear one - the way, truth and light. All the former are inept, undeserving, cheaters, theives, posers and liars for their own, (mispercieved) ends and not that of the general good and progress which is the whole basis for science. Are you startin' to understand? Supernaturalism's just a scheme to commit fraud. Nothing more and nothing less. Science needs to eliminate it - nothing more and nothing less.

 

[NEBRASKA NATURALIST]

Hi Team,
I'm from Nebraska. Go Big Red! I was educated at the finest institution in my state. What I found is we have more than the resources required to dispatch all theism, all religious fundamentalism, all bull forever - but we have not acted on it and are suffering mightily for that failure to act. Let us now dispatch forever the concepts of god(s), ghosts, life after death, luck, fate and the paranormal and free humanity from these horrible scourages that cripple and destroy humanity. If we do this, we will be seen by posterity as the greatest generation to date - which is what they expected of us.
I'm a social scientist - an empiricist. I'm just trying ta get the absolute truth - and, I think, all these so called "great" philosophical questions that have been held "unanswerable" were answerable - and they're easily answered too. As it was in Pre-Copernican and post-Copernican astrophysics. Cut the bull and and all comes clear and we need clarity - and courage - to proceed.
No god(s), ghosts, life-after-death, luck, fate, or paranormal. The task is not up to me to disprove these "theories", but on the proponents of them to prove them to me.

 

[Marijn]

Although i agree with you that people who dismiss the evolution (for discussions sake let's keep it on evolution theory) on religious basis are somewhat narrow minded.
There are already scientists who are trying to get some mutual standpoint.
The stantpoint beeing: Species do evolve but the evolution is directed by a higher beeing.

Agree with it or not, this i think is possibly the only way you´ll ever get some support from the mild to strong religious side.
Religious extremists will never accept anything that isn´t clearly stated in the bible so you can easily write them off.

Now playing the devils advocate: Isn´t the truth just the most commonly accepted idea?

 

[bross7]

The truth and generally accepted ideas can be one and the same, but it doesn't mean that they are so. At times there are always people who believe otherwise when in reality they will be proven right.

The bigger problem seems to be, that the misguided ones are the ones most willing to stand up and yell their beliefs. Science isn't forced on anyone for the most part. That scientific theory is so misinterpreted is a greater indication of the fact that the scientific community doesn't reach out to the general masses to educate them.

Speaking US specific, the two biggest publicity entities, at least in my opinion, are the church and the president/government. These are the groups that are most often heard from, and thus their words are put into the minds of the general population much more frequently. Any time any scientific information is in the media, it is about new "miracle drugs", or big stories that be applied to unrealistic stories (such as the T-Rex tissue and Jurassic Park)

 

[NEBRASKA NATURALIST]

Good evening scholars,
Marijn: "Now playing the devils advocate: Isn´t the truth just the most commonly accepted idea?"

Right on! You're right on the trail! Your answer: Not at all, and you know better. The truth IS NOT democratically determined. At one time everyone in the whole world, but one or a few, believed the Earth was flat. Truth exists independent of beliefs, being and desire. That's why empiricism is so rigorous and (good) scientists are (relatively) so critical and irreverent. But the truth is the real deal, the only game in town.
Personally I became very interested in the truth and only the truth when I became a pilot. Anything other than the full and complete truth is hazardous to pilots and the more truth and knowledge the better. Pilots have to live in that mindset in order to merely survive. Bull kills at supersonic speed when you're flying. Pilots have become so used to this everconstant pursuit, relatively austere lifestyle that, by the time I came to know them, I found a body of persons who were unique and wonderful for no apparent reason.
Now, let's all become pilots - in our lives and all our many, varied pursuits. We don't take no bull because we can't afford the risk. Throttle up, maintain altitude and airspeed, check all your instruments against each other - and THINK.
The theistic premise is ludicrous - it is not consistent with all else we know and, therefore must be quickly, if not immediately dismissed so we can get on to all other possible solutions. Those few possiblities of what's going on describe better what we sense, experience and know. Ya do have to decide and act accordingly.
This is a ground controlled approach. You're on flight path, on airspeed. Execute landing checklist. Welcome home.

Peace and love,
NN

 

[NEBRASKA NATURALIST]

Hey Northstar7,
We have you on radar.
"The bigger problem seems to be, that the misguided ones are the ones most willing to stand up and yell their beliefs. Science isn't forced on anyone for the most part. That scientific theory is so misinterpreted is a greater indication of the fact that the scientific community doesn't reach out to the general masses to educate them."

All true, but an old problem. The louder they yell and more they try to intimidate and humiliate their opponents the more I'm convinced they have nothing of substance to offer - and considering events and developments of late, they are an extremely vacuous lot. All the more the pity for all of us though.

Science isn't forced on persons because one ignores science at their own peril. Ignorance kills and life constantly enforces the lesson. We love science BECAUSE IT WORKS! Oh! the centuries of darkness humanity endured in it's absence! How many mystics spoke of flying before the Wright Bros really did? And now look - sixty years to go from Kitty Hawk to the Sea of Tranquility. What more demonstration of sheer peerless power to quickly and really solve problems do you need?
And you ain't seen nothing yet . . . Wait 'til my science comes to the fore. Be of good cheer. The cavalry's comin'.

Peace and love,
NN

 

[Phobos]

President Bush says "the jury is still out" on evolution.

This comment displays his ignorance on the status of the science of biology. For scientists, the jury is certainly not out. The scientific evidence and support for evolution is simply overwhelming.

So that sentiment is what is being pushed to the public by many creationist groups. They reject the theory of evolution (beginning on religious grounds) and are working hard to "teach the controversy" in public schools even though the controversy is non-scientific. They are making no headway in the scientific community.

 

[Phobos]

There are already scientists who are trying to get some mutual standpoint.
The stantpoint beeing: Species do evolve but the evolution is directed by a higher beeing.
Agree with it or not, this i think is possibly the only way you´ll ever get some support from the mild to strong religious side.

Although some scientists may hold that personal view, it is not part of any scientific theory. For one thing, the supernatural is outside the realm of science. Also, there is no well supported evidence to show the guiding hand of a higher being (claims of 'irreduceable complexity' are not standing up to scientific scrutiny). So, agree with it or not, it is out of place in a science classroom. Scientific theories should be built up from the facts and not mandated down from hopes/beliefs.

Religious extremists will never accept anything that isn´t clearly stated in the bible so you can easily write them off.

Except when they obtain political positions of power (school boards, legislature, presidency).

Now playing the devils advocate: Isn´t the truth just the most commonly accepted idea?

There's Reality, and then there's our understanding of Reality. Science doesn't offer "Truth". It offers explanations (best possible from the best possible data at that time).

 

[NEBRASKA NATURALIST]

Marijn said:
"Although some scientists may hold that personal view, it is not part of any scientific theory. For one thing, the supernatural is outside the realm of science."

Woah!
You're going right past the solution. There is nothing outside the realm of science.
when you realize that, everything about supernaturalism becomes entirely known and knowable. Supernaturalism is not an accepted premise. It's crap and to give it any credibility at all is a mistake. Scientists don't just give credibility to any theory or idea. Supernaturalism has to be dismissed until inconclusive proof of it's validity is shown.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Marijn said:
"Although some scientists may hold that personal view, it is not part of any scientific theory. For one thing, the supernatural is outside the realm of science."

Woah!
You're going right past the solution. There is nothing outside the realm of science.
when you realize that, everything about supernaturalism becomes entirely known and knowable. Supernaturalism is not an accepted premise. It's crap and to give it any credibility at all is a mistake. Scientists don't just give credibility to any theory or idea. Supernaturalism has to be dismissed until inconclusive proof of it's validity is shown.

You are perfectly correct about the rescript of science. The question is whether the approach of science
as it has existed since the seventeenth century, has anything to say about the data provided by supernaturalists. The history of their interactions is not encouraging.

 

[Mental Gridlock]

There's no such things as god(s) or ghosts or life after death or fate or the paranormal. I just saved you a lot of time, distress, failure and error. You're welcome.

No god(s), ghosts, life-after-death, luck, fate, or paranormal. The task is not up to me to disprove these "theories", but on the proponents of them to prove them to me.

If you want to talk about the burden of proof, then it's on you. You are making the affirmative claim that there's "no such thing" as all of those said entities, therefore you have to prove all said entities do not exist in order for your claim to have any validity.

Is it really your agenda to "dispatch all theism"? I can tell you this isn't the forum to do it, you may want to try: http://discussions.godandscience.org/

The theistic premise is ludicrous - it is not consistent with all else we know and, therefore must be quickly, if not immediately dismissed so we can get on to all other possible solutions. Those few possiblities of what's going on describe better what we sense, experience and know. Ya do have to decide and act accordingly. This is a ground controlled approach. You're on flight path, on airspeed. Execute landing checklist. Welcome home.

Not everyone has the same senses, experience and knowledge. In fact if you think everyone sees the world exactly the same as you then you're way off on your own empirical observations. Do you think everyone has the exact same flight path as yours? Do you really want to be colliding with everyone else's jet. At least from your close-minded perspective, at least figure these other pilots are just flying through a lot of clouds and turbulence and write them off as misguided but you're not going to change anyone's mind.

 

[Dr.Yes]

"The jury is still out on evolution."

A verdict is just now evolving out of their deliberations.

If being president is an example of survival of the fittest then, there's probably some evolutionary mechanisim that has determined when/how/why your president survived in a fit manner as president for his second term. Perhaps this is your opportunity to hold him accountable for any decisions deemed inappropriate before he builds his own library with your money and becomes less accessable.

 

[misogynisticfeminist]

Ok, that's stupid. To look at it from an entirely utilitarian point of view, what other theory can explain the evidence for evolution? Really, creationism doesn't explain sh it. Will it help further our understanding of biology? no.

 

[Pengwuino]

There seems to be a hugely misguided anti-religious sentiment on this board that is entirely laughable. According to people on this board and on this thread specifically, it seems like there's a portion of our country that believes rocket ships must be built based off blueprints in the bible and that we are demanding that all professors teach that evolution is stupid. Exactly who are these people? Why have i not seen or heard about any of these people? And why arent any of the schools in my state being overrun and diseased by these people? People on this board make it seem like that's exactly what happen but... I'm not seeing it... where am i suppose to look?

I do find a lot of people like Nebraska who are disgustingly intollerant of peoples beliefs and convictions. I have not exactly seen any priests walk into any quantum mechanics lectures and demand the class be canceled yet I've seen many horrific protests against religion. Comparing all the people i know, anyone whos done drugs, committed criminal acts, and basically act like jerks to people is roughly ... 80% chance fo being atheist (or 8/10 of the people who fit that description are atheists). I'd truly love to hear the basis for this disgusting rhetoric that "getting rid of all religion will make the world a better place" that people such as Nebraska cry out.

 

[misogynisticfeminist]

I have not exactly seen any priests walk into any quantum mechanics lectures and demand the class be canceled yet I've seen many horrific protests against religion.

like...whooo, picturing men coming from monkeys have already almost exhausted their mental capacity. And no, you can't possibly expect them to understand, quantum mehanics...? i mean really, quantum mechanics.

and is it me? or do i see the religious doing most of the protesting?

 

[Pengwuino]

This whole thread sounds like a protest and... well... all i see is me acten on the side of reason :).

Oddly enough one of my professors last semster was a theoretical particle physicist... oddly enough he was religious :-/. Doesnt fit your stereotype?

 

[misogynisticfeminist]

This whole thread sounds like a protest and... well... all i see is me acten on the side of reason :).

Oddly enough one of my professors last semster was a theoretical particle physicist... oddly enough he was religious :-/. Doesnt fit your stereotype?

forgive my pun pengwuino. I'm not exactly blaming religion. I just think that religion and science are separate. religion should not tell science what to think and vice versa. Btw, is that guy John Polkinghorne?

 

[Phobos]

Exactly who are these people?

for starters, check into...
Answers in Genesis
Creation Research Institute
Creation Science Evangelism
Creation Science Research Center
Discovery Institute
Institute for Creation Research

And why arent any of the schools in my state being overrun and diseased by these people?

California may be one of the quieter states (lately, Kansas, Texas, Ohio, and Georgia are making the most news), but they're there...

for example,
1981 court case Segraves v. State of California re: teaching evolution vs. kids' religious beliefs
2004 Science teachers in the Roseville Joint Union High School District rejecting the attempt to add antievolutionist materials to the district science curriculum
2005 - http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2005/CA/667_creationists_in_california_4_15_2005.asp

People on this board make it seem like that's exactly what happen but... I'm not seeing it... where am i suppose to look?

all the latest updates from across the country...
http://www.ncseweb.org/default.asp

I have not exactly seen any priests walk into any quantum mechanics lectures and demand the class be canceled

they take it to the school boards, not the classrooms

If you look at the websites of some of the groups I mentioned above, you'll see that they also argue against other scientific issues besides evolution

Comparing all the people i know, anyone whos done drugs, committed criminal acts, and basically act like jerks to people is roughly ... 80% chance fo being atheist (or 8/10 of the people who fit that description are atheists).

I suspect you have a biased sampling. Something like 10% (at most) of the U.S. population is atheist and I'd wager that a far greater percentage of the population is guilty of one or more of those acts you mention. But this is besides the point. Evolution is not anti-religion, although it does conflict with some religious interpretations of origins.

 

[JonF]

This post made me cringe so hard I just had to reply…

Bush and his ilk are just corrupt politicians and anti-American, anti-science and anti-world. Forget their bull. Proceed.

Ad Hominem

Evolution's not a theory, but a fact. Leave it at that and proceed.

Theory: A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena

Facts are statements with true truth-values.

Contrary to previously statements by Nebraska evolution would be a theory by definition and not a fact.

Try Zero-based science: don't believe anything without evidence and/or "fit" with what we know for sure. Quickly analyze everything and you'll soon see a pattern emerge. Let's call that body of knowledge "reality". Any questions?

Axiom: self-evident principle or one that is accepted as true without proof as the basis for argument; a postulate.

Axiomatic: of or relating to or derived from axioms

Guess what type of system the natural sciences are?

Try Zero-based science

and

don't believe without evidence

and

There's no such things as god(s) or ghosts or life after death or fate or the paranormal.

I sense a fallacy… Denying the Antecedent

Now, knowing this, what do WE do to save the world, ourselves and all humanity?

I suggest we start by avoiding logical fallacies, and sensationalistic methods of discussion.

 

[Pengwuino]

forgive my pun pengwuino. I'm not exactly blaming religion. I just think that religion and science are separate. religion should not tell science what to think and vice versa. Btw, is that guy John Polkinghorne?

No. Brandon Murakhami (sp?). He is "kinda religious" according to someone from last semester so I am not sure. This was his 2nd semester teaching so I am actually curious as to how he came to that conclusion in the first place...

Science and religion should be separate but the crap that people like Nebraska come out with pisses me off. Hes practically calling for a holocaust against all religious people. Phobos seems to be pointing out that "the other side" attempts to take out objectionable things from textbooks but i would hope no one goes around religious forums saying "all scientists should be removed and all science destroyed" and using some dumb copy/paste job to end all his paragraphs lol.

 

[misogynisticfeminist]

I personally think that facts can only be ascribed to the empirical. Like it is a fact that an apple drops when let go from a high place. But it is NOT a fact that gravity is the one pulling, but rather gravity is the theory, and a rather successful one to boot.

 

[Dr.Yes]

Teaching biblical creationism in the classroom is just another mechanism of evolution.

Whatever humans do is a part of the evolutionary scheme of things. We can't consider the things we do as separate from the grand machination of nature.

Besides, protest and displays of disgust have never stopped anyone from believing what they believe. Its only until some great event (demonstrating the validity of evolutionary theory) happens to a person that they will begin to grasp what many people on this board already know.

Then there are those who will miss the evolutionary boat altogether. Will it make any difference to them that they missed it? Doubtful. Whatever.

 

[bross7]

Teaching biblical creationism in the classroom is just another mechanism of evolution.

Whatever humans do is a part of the evolutionary scheme of things. We can't consider the things we do as separate from the grand machination of nature.

Besides, protest and displays of disgust have never stopped anyone from believing what they believe. Its only until some great event (demonstrating the validity of evolutionary theory) happens to a person that they will begin to grasp what many people on this board already know.

Then there are those who will miss the evolutionary boat altogether. Will it make any difference to them that they missed it? Doubtful. Whatever.

Perhaps not, but when these same people try to influence youth by proclaiming things like "Evolution doesn't exist" and "Believing in evolution means not believing in God", that is where you have reason to be concerned.

Currently as a University student at the University of Western Ontario, we are going through a semi-related issue in terms of abortion and religion as Dr. Henri Morgentaler is being awarded an honourary degree for his work in pushing for legal abortions.
Catholic parents did things like have their kids wear black arms bands at a track meet (which gave the Catholic board a deal to use the track field at Western for their meet) to protest the honourary degree.

It has forced limitations to be made on attendees at the graduations for fear of public demonstrations disrupting the ceremonies. Those in favour of Morgentaler and in the "pro choice" side chose to have their show of support on the campus held the day prior to the honourary degree being awarded (actually the degree will be presented today June 16th). The "pro life" group are holding their protest on the day of the degree and have promised to be vocal in their dis-taste for the ceremony. At the same time they are saying they don't want have abortion forced on them.

If you want to pretend that evolution doesn't exist and that God just said one day, hmm, I think I'll made the Universe today, all the more power to you. But just as I won't go into a church and scream at the top of my lungs that humans come from monkey's, I expect religious opinion to not be shoved down my throat. I can't recall the last time I had a group of evolutionists come to my door giving my pamplets promoting evolution, but I do recall having people come to my door to tell me that I should be praising Jesus right now.

 

[Dr.Yes]

Perhaps not, but when these same people try to influence youth by proclaiming things like "Evolution doesn't exist" and "Believing in evolution means not believing in God", that is where you have reason to be concerned......

I'm not concerned. People are always trying to shove stuff down everyone else's throat. Its called marketing and campaigning etc. If you want to be concerned be concerned about the fact that some people actually fall for what they're being told to fall for.

I can't recall the last time I had a group of evolutionists come to my door giving my pamplets promoting evolution, but I do recall having people come to my door to tell me that I should be praising Jesus right now.

At least these people at your door don't have AK7s at your head telling you what to believe, like in some nations. Next time get your monkey to answer the door.