The Lagrangian for a free particle

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the Lagrangian for a free particle, specifically focusing on the transformation between two inertial frames and the implications of Taylor expansion in this context. Participants explore the mathematical formulation and reasoning behind the terms in the Lagrangian, particularly the differentiation with respect to velocity squared.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant cites Landau's textbook and presents a formula involving the Lagrangian L' in terms of L and an infinitesimal change in velocity, questioning the form of the second term in the expansion.
  • Another participant suggests that since the Lagrangian depends on the square of the velocity, the surviving terms in the Taylor expansion correspond to L(v²) and a derivative term involving \(\frac{\partial L}{\partial v²}\), referencing polynomial expansion principles.
  • A different participant expresses confusion about the presence of \(\frac{\partial L}{\partial v²}\) in the expansion, arguing that derivatives should only be taken with respect to the infinitesimal \(\vec{\epsilon}\).
  • This participant later proposes a connection to the mean value theorem to justify the presence of the derivative with respect to \(v²\) in the Taylor expansion.
  • Another participant acknowledges the previous explanation but clarifies that their reference to partial derivatives was about the terms remaining after the polynomial expansion, suggesting a simpler approach may be more effective.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the mathematical treatment of the Lagrangian expansion, particularly regarding the differentiation with respect to \(v²\) versus \(\vec{\epsilon}\). The discussion remains unresolved as participants explore various interpretations and justifications.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the assumptions made regarding the dependence of the Lagrangian on velocity and the treatment of infinitesimals. The discussion also reflects varying levels of comfort with Taylor series and polynomial expansions, which may affect the interpretations of the terms involved.

qoqosz
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According to Landau textbook:

Having two inertial frames K and K' moving with velocities \vec{v} and \vec{v'}=\vec{v} + \vec{\epsilon} where \vec{\epsilon} is an infinitesimal. We have L' = L(v'^2) = L (v^2 + 2 \vec{v} \cdot \vec{\epsilon} + \epsilon^2). Expanding this expression in powers of \vec{\epsilon} and neglecting terms above first order, we obtain: L(v'^2) = L(v^2) + \frac{\partial L}{\partial v^2} 2 \vec{v} \cdot \vec{\epsilon}.

I simply don't understand how the second term on the right of the equation is of that form, i.e. why we differentiate with respect to v^2?
According to my calculations it should look like:

L(v'^2) \approx L(v^2) + \frac{\partial L (v^2)}{\partial \vec{\epsilon}} \vec{\epsilon} \cdot (2 \vec{v} + \vec{\epsilon} ) \approx L(v^2) + \frac{\partial L (v^2)}{\partial \vec{\epsilon}}2 \vec{\epsilon} \cdot \vec{v}
 
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The simplest way I can put it is that in the unprimed frame the Lagrangian depends just on the square of the velocity, and if L(v^{2}) is a polynomial function or put it in terms of the Taylor expansion, the only terms that survive after taking into account those at first order in \overrightarrow{\varepsilon } are precisely those corresponding to L(v^{2}) plus \frac{\partial L}{\partial v^{2}} times 2\overrightarrow{\varepsilon }\bullet \overrightarrow{v}..., since is the factor corresponding in this polynomial expansion. Remember Pascal's triangle?
1
1 1
1 2 1
1 3 3 1 ... the surviving terms are the first two and the factors different to 1 corresponds to \frac{\partial L}{\partial v^{2}} in the mentioned expansion.
 
I don't get it. Why there's \frac{\partial L}{\partial v^2}? If we expand function in Taylor series (taking \vec{\epsilon} as an independent variable) there should be only derivatives in respect to that var (epsilon).

-edit-
I think I got it - from mean value theorem we have: \frac{f(x+h) - f(x)}{h} \approx f'(x), h \to 0, so: L( (v+\epsilon)^2 ) \approx L (v^2) + \frac{\partial L (v^2)}{\partial v^2} (v^2)' \epsilon :)
 
Last edited:
Right, but what I was referring with the partial derivative not was the derivatives in the taylor expansion, but to the terms that are left after this polynomial expansion. However, is much simpler the last by you.
 

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