The Martian Movie - Survival Thriller

[Rubidium_71]

But without it there's no story.

I don't know if I would say there's no story, he would have just had to work at it a little more to devise another reason Watney becomes stranded. I can think of a couple, but again I didn't write the book or screenplay. I just tried to look at it as alternate universe Mars, where at the atmosphere is somewhat denser. Otherwise it would dissipate the drama of the film.
For the sequel they can strand him on Venus. Let's see Watney think his way out of that one. :)

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

I don't know if I would say there's no story, he would have just had to work at it a little more to devise another reason Watney becomes stranded. I can think of a couple, but again I didn't write the book or screenplay. I just tried to look at it as alternate universe Mars, where at the atmosphere is somewhat denser. Otherwise it would dissipate the drama of the film.
For the sequel they can strand him on Venus. Let's see Watney think his way out of that one. :)

You'd need to find a situation where he's presumed dead but isn't. I'll have to think on that.

 

[Rubidium_71]

No problem there. The only requirements are disabling his one and only bio monitor (good thing they didn't have a back up for that) and disposing of Watney long enough for his friends to leave.
Off the top of my head - something like this would suffice:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caves_of_Mars_Project
A cave-in could damage his suit and send his body plummeting down a lava tube. The area could be block with rubble and seem inaccessible, but he could have found an alternative way out. When Watney finally claws his way back to the surface, his mates are gone (the incident could take place close to the end of the mission-he simply misses the boat.) This storyline would have some benefits since it is more likely a botanist might find some sort of extremophile moss or lichen in a deep cave vs a radiatio-blasted surface desert. Even fossil evidence of such a life form having subsisted in the distant past would be significant, giving them something more than dust and rocks to take home. The Caves Of Mars project details some of the other benefits of the concept, some of which would have helped Watney survive (protection from radiation being helpful in particular.) An airlock set in the solid rock mouth of a cave would be, perhaps, less likely to explode than one made of plastic and aluminum.
OR a homicidal robot could have punched him in the ribs and seemingly killed him, disabling his bio monitor as his companions fled in terror... or he could've wandered into a huge stone face monument and gone off to meet some Roger-like aliens... but then copyright feathers might get ruffled. ;)

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

I was going that way, but I didn't picture Lewis leaving him behind. It would have been simple enough to send them more fuel and supplies as they got closer to Earth, so even a 30 mission extension (the limits of the food supply on the surface) wouldn't have been a major problem.

He has to be presumed dead, not just missing. I knew people like Lewis in the Navy. I knew my body would make it home.

 

[Drakkith]

I was going that way, but I didn't picture Lewis leaving him behind. It would have been simple enough to send them more fuel and supplies as they got closer to Earth, so even a 30 mission extension (the limits of the food supply on the surface) wouldn't have been a major problem.

How so?

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

The resupply would be done by moving booster and cargo pod into space separately and then hooking them up in LEO. The total additional resupply would be 30-90 days tops for a 30 day delayed departure from Mars orbit for Hermes. This would be happening when they were within 3 months of Earth so they wouldn't need a rocket capable of going to Venus to do it.

As for the food (and other supplies, like toilet paper and KETCHUP!), remember that they sent 60 days of food "for redundancy", as Mark says at one point.

 

[Rubidium_71]

He has to be presumed dead, not just missing. I knew people like Lewis in the Navy. I knew my body would make it home.

In the fanciful alternate version I suggested, his lone biosensor is disabled and he is presumed buried under tons of rock. The resupply rocket? That exploded in the film as it originally went, so my faith there would be shaky. If simple "end of mission" and presumed death/no possible access to the body isn't enough reason to leave him behind, we can always call on the old Mars scifi go-tos. Remember solar flares and meteor showers? Time for another guest appearance.
Subterranean Mars would have made for a more interesting story, both for real science and drama, and the author wouldn't have had to thicken the atmosphere. Book and movie plots have pivoted on much less.
While I respect what you say about your former commanders, even in the Navy it is sometimes impossible to retrieve a comrade's body. The ocean floor is littered with submarine remains all the way up to USS Scorpion for example. Sometimes the idea of retrieving a body has to be turned into the concept of a war grave for practical reasons.
The same could've been assumed for Mr. Watney, especially if he became lost for an extended period in a very large unexplored network of lava tubes beneath tons of caved in rock. It would take...a...miracle! What a wow shot we would have as he emerges from the peak of Olympus Mons! ;)
All that said, the story is what it is. He thickened the atmosphere, so what? I can suspend my disbelief in favor of entertainment there. The other science we've been discussing is something a person can take or leave. At the end of the day, it's only a movie after all.

rocket capable of going to Venus to do it.

I was joking about a mission to Venus with a stranded Watney. Manned missions to Venus, in my opinion, would be pointless. A landing would be nothing short of suicide and there would be no real benefit to be had.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

The IRIS probe exploded because they cut corners on the testing, not because Goddard didn't know what he was talking about. ;)

Lewis had the time to try to recover Watney if they went to 60 days in your scenario. As I said, it's "dead", not "missing" that would make them leave without looking for him.

As for the Venus probe, that was the Taiyang Shen's original mission.

 

[EnumaElish]

The ocean floor is littered with submarine remains
...
I was joking about a mission to Venus with a stranded Watney. Manned missions to Venus, in my opinion, would be pointless. A landing would be nothing short of suicide and there would be no real benefit to be had.

Modern nuclear subs have an estimated "crush" depth of 700-800 meters. That's 70-80 atmospheres' pressure. My guess is if we could transport one to venus it may just be able to withstand the surface pressure (about 90A's). It may even be able to "swim" in the dense atmosphere.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

What about the corrosive atmosphere? It took a few attempts to make a lander that survived more than a few minutes.

 

[EnumaElish]

What about the corrosive atmosphere? It took a few attempts to make a lander that survived more than a few minutes.

Venus's sulfuric acid rain never reaches the ground, but is evaporated by the heat before reaching the surface in a phenomenon known as virga

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

And what about the corrosive atmosphere?

 

[Drakkith]

Modern nuclear subs have an estimated "crush" depth of 700-800 meters. That's 70-80 atmospheres' pressure. My guess is if we could transport one to venus it may just be able to withstand the surface pressure (about 90A's). It may even be able to "swim" in the dense atmosphere.

It's not just a matter of withstanding the atmosphere, it's a matter of doing so without weighing several hundred tons or more.

 

[EnumaElish]

And what about the corrosive atmosphere?

Navy paint?

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Navy paint?

Navy chow would work too, I think.

 

[EnumaElish]

It's not just a matter of withstanding the atmosphere, it's a matter of doing so without weighing several hundred tons or more.

This being the sci-fi forum... We first put a space station to Venus orbit. It captures space rock to build the sub, which is lowered to the surface.

Two things working for this story: (1) thick atmosphere acts as a brake on descent, something the Russians counted on when they landed probes. (2) Surface pressure causes CO2 to liqidify, turning the entire surface into something of an ocean. Or at least a shallow sea.

 

[Drakkith]

This being the sci-fi forum... We first put a space station to Venus orbit. It captures space rock to build the sub, which is lowered to the surface.

You'd need a rock with all the required minerals needed to build the sub, along with facilities to process all of the ore, forge everything, assemble it, etc. Or a transporter/replicator.

(2) Surface pressure causes CO2 to liqidify, turning the entire surface into something of an ocean. Or at least a shallow sea.

Well, I suppose we could modify the gravitational constant of gravity in the local area of Venus...

 

[Drakkith]

Navy chow would work too, I think.

No need for probes and subs. Just slather it all over the astronauts' suits and they'd be just fine.

 

[Rubidium_71]

The IRIS probe exploded because they cut corners on the testing, not because Goddard didn't know what he was talking about.

Yes, they were hurrying and they blew it, no difference in my alternate scenario. In real life this reckless behavior exists as well, it's what caused the Columbia Disaster.

Lewis had the time to try to recover Watney if they went to 60 days in your scenario. As I said, it's "dead", not "missing" that would make them leave without looking for him.

Ah, but that's just it. We're talking about a movie script. If the script states "it is impossible to move that much rock in the time we have to recover his body," then that's it. The script would also state "there is no known way to reach him." In the story he may survive against the odds, still undetectable because of his destroyed biosensor and reach the Martian surface through a previously undiscovered route (maybe something that opened up for the 1st time after the original cave in.) But since this scenario revolves around a movie script, plausibility is integrated with a fictional narrative. We could discuss it further, but it really boils down to "they could dig him out." "No they couldn't."
"Yes they could."
The only stalemate-breaker there is the imaginary script and I'll put an evil robot in there if I have to... don't make me... :)
The idea of going all out to safeguard the lives and/or dead bodies of space explorers is also not consistent with real life. They wrote 2 speeches for the first Apollo Moon landing, one if they were successful, another if they were stranded on the Moon. The stranded speech did not state "hey, we're comin' to get you, hang tight! No man left behind! Rescue mission time!" It was a "nice knowin' ya" speech. Could they have had a rescue mission in place? Of course, you run a parallel project at another facility. They had plenty of cash and time to construct redundant nuke silos all over the country for years, a fraction of that could have paid for an Apollo beta program. Just a matter of money and material, but they chose to spend on doomsday weapons instead of rescuing stranded explorers on the Moon.
If they had been unable to talk Apollo 13 through their problems I doubt very much that NASA would've launched a retrieval mission to track the ship down and get their frozen bodies. The "aw, shucks" response would've come into play if 13 had burned up. Again, a rescue mission would've been theoretically possible, it's a 4 day trip after all. But it's never even considered - either they get back on their own ship or not at all.
Decades later they had a chance to save the Columbia crew, but chose not to because they were in a hurry, cheap and reckless. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Columbia_disaster#Investigation
This kind of cut-our-losses NASA culture doesn't bode well for a Watney. It's all academic anyway, NASA these days is in the unmanned probe business, not the sending people to space business.

As for the Venus probe, that was the Taiyang Shen's original mission.

1) Doesn't make it a good idea. After all, these same Chinese pollute on such a catastrophic scale they might as well be breathing in a Venusian atmosphere already. What is the real gain in going to Venus anyway, other than watching Watney be crushed, melt and burn all at the same time?
2) There is only ONE Venus probe - the covered golf cart that chased Steve Austin, the Six Million Dollar Man. Now there's a space probe, my friends! It has a circular saw arm (very practical for Venus exploration) and sounds like a clogged Hoover vacuum cleaner. Who remembers this marvel of Soviet technology? Anyone?

Gotta love the fellow attempting to gun it down. Hilarious.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Okay then.

 

[Drakkith]

Not sure if this was brought up before, but can someone explain why Watney's habitat blew up when he entered the airlock?

 

[Borg]

Not sure if this was brought up before, but can someone explain why Watney's habitat blew up when he entered the airlock?

Simple wear and tear? I just thought that the original mission didn't require an airlock that could withstand several years of use.

 

[Drakkith]

Simple wear and tear? I just thought that the original mission didn't require an airlock that could withstand several years of use.

That was my thought, but I didn't know if I'd missed something and there was another explanation.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Too many cycles on that airlock. He had two, but that was the convenient one. Remember, the HAB was designed for a 30-day mission.