The Multiple Worlds theory- it contradicts itself

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Multiple Worlds theory, particularly its perceived contradictions and implications regarding determinism at both microscopic and macroscopic levels. Participants explore the theory's claims of infinite realities and the effects of quantum mechanics, specifically the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, on these realities.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that the Multiple Worlds theory contradicts itself by suggesting that what is true at the microscopic level (infinite realities) does not apply at the macroscopic level, where changes are always drastic.
  • Others propose that the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, while significant at the microscopic level, has negligible effects at the macroscopic level, leading to questions about the validity of the theory's claims.
  • A participant mentions that even small changes at the macroscopic level can lead to significant consequences, emphasizing that no change can be considered negligible.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the usefulness of the concept of infinity in the context of the theory, suggesting it poses problems for its acceptance in modern physics.
  • Another viewpoint suggests that while evidence for the Multiple Worlds theory may be limited, it remains a part of the mathematical framework of physics, indicating potential implications for reality.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the implications of the Multiple Worlds theory, particularly concerning the effects of quantum mechanics at different scales. There is no consensus on whether the theory is scientifically valid or more akin to science fiction.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding the relationship between microscopic and macroscopic phenomena, as well as the challenges posed by the concept of infinity in the theory.

arjunmalhotra
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I'm new here. So, I might be unfamiliar with many things that have been talked about here. However, I noticed something about the Multiple Worlds theory-the fact that it contradicts itself. In the following paras, I'm going to express myself about this.

If I'm not wrong, the theory claims the existence of multiple(infact, infinite realities) at the same time. We can only experience one of these realities at a time. This conclusion has been reached by taking the examples of subatomic particles like electrons that can make the transition from one energy state to another. Similarly, the theory says that it is possible for us to experience a reality totally different from what we experience all the time by making a transition from one reality to another. The number of possible realities is infinite, depending upon the point in history where events had taken a different turn from what actually happened in our very own reality.

The lack of determinism in quantum theory, a consequence of the Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, is used to conclude that since an electron's position with respect to a certain velocity can't be exactly determined(or vice versa), it is possible for it to be in many places at one time, although it will be in only one place at a specific time. The number of possibilities is huge. Similarly, if this was true at the macroscopic level, we could possibly experience an infinite number of realities, only one of them at a particular time.

However, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle has very little effect at the macroscopic level as the error in the determination of one physical quantity with respect to another is very little, almost negligible. So, the theory, in a certain way, says that what is true for the microscopic level must have little effect on the macroscopic level(since at the macroscopic level, one physical quantity can be determined with respect to another while this is not possible at the microscopic level). So, it follows from this that if separate realities are possible at the microscopic level, the same must not apply at the macroscopic level, i.e., it must have such a little effect at the macroscopic level that it can be neglected. This is something that is hard to understand because if any event changes at the macroscopic level, the whole course of history takes a different turn. Thus, there can be no negligible change at the macroscopic level. If anything at all changes, the change produced is always drastic. Thus, the theory contradicts itself.

Some might say that the properties of macroscopic objects are based on those of the microscopic objects that make them up. However, the interactions between these microscopic objects changes the properties of these macroscopic objects. So, the behaviour experienced is not the same.

I am not even going to talk about the strange behaviour of the indeterminate number ∞. It causes major problems for this hypothesis because it is not a useful number for modern physics, however useful a number it might be for mathematics. The concept of ∞ is always going to be a hypothetical one.

I would conclude by saying that if there is any lack of determinism at all, it is in this theory itself. The theory hardly determines anything. I would rather consider it as science fiction rather than science fact.
 
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arjunmalhotra said:
I'm new here. So, I might be unfamiliar with many things that have been talked about here. However, I noticed something about the Multiple Worlds theory-the fact that it contradicts itself. In the following paras, I'm going to express myself about this.

If I'm not wrong, the theory claims the existence of multiple(infact, infinite realities) at the same time. We can only experience one of these realities at a time. This conclusion has been reached by taking the examples of subatomic particles like electrons that can make the transition from one energy state to another. Similarly, the theory says that it is possible for us to experience a reality totally different from what we experience all the time by making a transition from one reality to another. The number of possible realities is infinite, depending upon the point in history where events had taken a different turn from what actually happened in our very own reality.

The lack of determinism in quantum theory, a consequence of the Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, is used to conclude that since an electron's position with respect to a certain velocity can't be exactly determined(or vice versa), it is possible for it to be in many places at one time, although it will be in only one place at a specific time. The number of possibilities is huge. Similarly, if this was true at the macroscopic level, we could possibly experience an infinite number of realities, only one of them at a particular time.

However, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle has very little effect at the macroscopic level as the error in the determination of one physical quantity with respect to another is very little, almost negligible. So, the theory, in a certain way, says that what is true for the microscopic level must have little effect on the macroscopic level(since at the macroscopic level, one physical quantity can be determined with respect to another while this is not possible at the microscopic level). So, it follows from this that if separate realities are possible at the microscopic level, the same must not apply at the macroscopic level, i.e., it must have such a little effect at the macroscopic level that it can be neglected. This is something that is hard to understand because if any event changes at the macroscopic level, the whole course of history takes a different turn. Thus, there can be no negligible change at the macroscopic level. If anything at all changes, the change produced is always drastic. Thus, the theory contradicts itself.

Some might say that the properties of macroscopic objects are based on those of the microscopic objects that make them up. However, the interactions between these microscopic objects changes the properties of these macroscopic objects. So, the behaviour experienced is not the same.

I am not even going to talk about the strange behaviour of the indeterminate number ∞. It causes major problems for this hypothesis because it is not a useful number for modern physics, however useful a number it might be for mathematics. The concept of ∞ is always going to be a hypothetical one.

I would conclude by saying that if there is any lack of determinism at all, it is in this theory itself. The theory hardly determines anything. I would rather consider it as science fiction rather than science fact.

Close to no effect doesn't equal no effect, and it's not proven in any way so there's no reason to have to question whether it's science-fiction or not. Even though there isn't much evidence of the multiple worlds theory, it's still in the mathematics of physics that you could randomly teleport to a different room, even if it is highly improbable. And besides, just because you can't "observe" these effects on the macroscopic level don't mean they have no effect, quantum physics drives all chemistry and thus all of life.
 
Well, if even a slight thing such as a person going five minutes late to his office can have a drastic effect as he might miss an important meeting and not be able to forward his suggestions to the board of his company. That might lead to a change in the policies of the company and that will definitely change the lives of many. So, all I'm saying is that there can be no negligible change at all at the macroscopic level. Any change that takes place will be drastic.
 
arjunmalhotra said:
Well, if even a slight thing such as a person going five minutes late to his office can have a drastic effect as he might miss an important meeting and not be able to forward his suggestions to the board of his company. That might lead to a change in the policies of the company and that will definitely change the lives of many. So, all I'm saying is that there can be no negligible change at all at the macroscopic level. Any change that takes place will be drastic.

But the reason they made the decision to spend an extra 5 minutes and be late is related to cells which are already pretty small, which function based of off molecules which are even smaller.
 
arjunmalhotra said:
Well, if even a slight thing such as a person going five minutes late to his office can have a drastic effect as he might miss an important meeting and not be able to forward his suggestions to the board of his company. That might lead to a change in the policies of the company and that will definitely change the lives of many. So, all I'm saying is that there can be no negligible change at all at the macroscopic level. Any change that takes place will be drastic.
There's also fractials which keep their shape on an infinite number of levels which many things in nature work off of. If a fractal is a particular shape at a very small level, it will have a similar shape at a bigger level in the macroscopic world. Just look at how crystals are structured. The way the molecules are built and fit together repeats so perfectly that the pattern repeats until you have a macroscopic crystal.
 
scijeebus said:
There's also fractials which keep their shape on an infinite number of levels which many things in nature work off of. If a fractal is a particular shape at a very small level, it will have a similar shape at a bigger level in the macroscopic world. Just look at how crystals are structured. The way the molecules are built and fit together repeats so perfectly that the pattern repeats until you have a macroscopic crystal.

Crystals usually have just one constituent.

Humans are made up of so many different things that they can't be compared with crystals. After all, we are talking about this theory having an effect on the lives of humans at all.
 
arjunmalhotra said:
Crystals usually have just one constituent.

Humans are made up of so many different things that they can't be compared with crystals. After all, we are talking about this theory having an effect on the lives of humans at all.

Energy distribution fractalizes , cells fractalize, molecular structures fractalize...the multiple worlds theory isn't suppose to have an "effect", it's suppose to be how reality is already working.
 

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