The orbital eccentricity change of the Earth ?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the changes in the orbital eccentricity of the Earth, specifically whether the Earth's orbit is becoming more circular or elliptical, the rate of this change, and the reliability of observational methods used to measure these changes. The scope includes theoretical and observational aspects of celestial mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about the current state of the Earth's orbital eccentricity and whether it is becoming more circular or elliptical.
  • One participant claims that the eccentricity of the Earth's orbit is decreasing at a rate of approximately -0.00004292 per century.
  • Another participant suggests that certainty in these measurements comes from observations and physics predictions, although questions about the accuracy of these observations are raised.
  • A later reply argues that accurate measurements can be made by observing other planets and deriving a self-consistent orbital solution that aligns with General Relativity, allowing for extrapolation of orbital changes over millions of years.
  • Concerns are expressed regarding the measurement of the distance to the Sun, with one participant stating that the Sun does not reflect radar, while another counters that direct observations can determine this distance without radar reflection.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the accuracy of observational methods and the implications of these measurements for understanding the Earth's orbital changes. There is no consensus on the reliability of the observations or the implications of the eccentricity change.

Contextual Notes

Limitations in the discussion include unresolved questions about the accuracy of observational methods and the dependence on specific definitions of eccentricity and measurement techniques.

Bjarne
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Can someone answer one, some or all these questions;
  • Is the orbit of the Earth right now getting more circular or more elliptical?
  • How much?
  • How can we be sure?
 
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The eccentricity of the Earth's orbit is decreasing at a rate of ~-0.00004292/century.
 
Bjarne said:
Can someone answer one, some or all these questions;
  • Is the orbit of the Earth right now getting more circular or more elliptical?
  • How much?
  • How can we be sure?

We can be sure based on observations and measurements coupled with predicted effects based on physics.
 
Drakkith said:
We can be sure based on observations and measurements coupled with predicted effects based on physics.

We can so far I know not measure the distance to the Sun because the Sun does not reflect radar.

So how accurate is “observation” ?
 
Very accurate, actually. The trick is not to observe the Sun directly, but to observe the other planets, and to find a self-consistent orbital solution from these observations that agrees with General Relativity. One can even test for departures from GR and for unmodeled mass.

Once one does that, one can extrapolate the planets' motions several million years both forward and backward. When one does that, one finds that the planets' orbit orientations do loop-the-loops, and that their eccentricities and inclinations oscillate quasiperiodically. This leads to Milankovitch climate cycles on the Earth and likely also on Mars.

In particular, I've plotted

Eccentricity / Runge-Lenz vector: {e*cos(w), e*sin(w)}
Inclination / north-pole vector: {sin(i)*cos(W), sin(i)*sin(W)}

for the last several million years.

I've made videos for YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/my_playlists?p=D0825FC30A2F00A6
http://www.youtube.com/my_playlists?p=86F2CCA7F3F677ED

I got the numbers from here:
J. Laskar
"Secular evolution of the Solar System over 10 million years"
Astronomy and Astrophysics, 198, 341-362 (1988).
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1988A&A...198..341L

I had to OCR the numbers and then painstakingly correct the OCRing, so there might still be some typos.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Bjarne said:
We can so far I know not measure the distance to the Sun because the Sun does not reflect radar.

So how accurate is “observation” ?

There are direct observations that can be made to determine the distance to the sun. We don't need to reflect radar off of it.

See here for more info. http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=400
(Further down is how the 1st astronomers measured the distance to the sun)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

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