News The Ultimate Loss of Civil Liberties: Innocent Man Shot Dead in UK

[The Smoking Man]

The problem with being challanged with 'enough people' so a terrorist is contained is that he/she is more compelled to detonate a bomb as they find themselves surrounded. That's my view anyway.

It is wrong. The whole purpose behind 'shoot to kill' is to not alow a terrorist a chance to detonate at all.

By challenging him, they allow him this possibility.

I thought he was challanged inside the station, I recall hearing in the news and reading a number of articles that he was by the ticket machine, supposedly with the intent to purchase a ticket, when officers challanged him. But again this is not concret.

No, you heard correctly however you didn't follow the link I gave you which includes this picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:StockwellTube.jpg You can clearly see the ticket machine and the turnstiles.

They obviously challenged him from the doorway which allowed him to run inside.

Very speculative.

I suggest you read the actual http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?docid=1G1:96860752&refid=ink_tptd_np&skeyword=&teaser=&COOKIE=NO&token=5B3DF6035CDE4DFC88239D654E081010 then:

POLICE officers are to be issued with guidance on dealing with suicide bombers.

They will be told not to intervene or challenge a suspected suicide bomber, but to alert anti-terrorist experts immediately.

Patrol officers will then be offered advice on how to assess whether the suspect is a potential suicide, or someone planning to plant a bomb.

If a potential suicide is thought likely, officers will be advised on how best to clear people from the path of the bomber without alerting him.

A range of tactics can then be used against the bomber - including the use ...

This view is highly flawed. How do you know the gentleman spoke in English for anyone to listen to the call? Put yourself in the officers' shoes, how would they know he was informing his cousin about being late for work and not for instance finalising the bomb plot by phone?

I didn't say that. I said, "So these police are not aware of the difference between Brazilian Portugese and Arabic?". One would assume an anti-terrorist squad could tell the difference. It certainly makes it clear that these were not 'snap decisions were being made if he queued for a ticket and then made a phone call. There was CERTAINLY enough time to call in the back-up from the marked soldiers standing outside.

Now this is where things get obscure. The man is challanged, he fails to obey police intructions and to exacerbate things further, he decides to hurdle the ticket barriers. To me this would've been a highly suspicious act that could not be ignored and interpreted as a 'fare dodger'.

It has already been said that witnesses state he was not challenged and that the police just put on their blue baseball hats.

Now even if he vaulted the turnstyles and was THEN challenged, he would assume he was going to get done for fare dodging and legged it to the train to get away.

So ... does a guy wearing a suicide vest 'vault a turnstile'? He might 'fall down go boom!'

 

[alexandra]

Is this part of the new pre-emptive philosophy? We've had pre-emptive wars, pre-emptive executions and now pre-emptive exonerations. So hundreds of years of law just gets flushed down the toilet?

This is precisely my concern too - what happens to the rule of law now? What happens to the innocent who just happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time? If I lived in London, I would not want to use public transport, or even walk in the streets. I'd be worried about being out in public anywhere, in fact - an ordinary person who happens to cross the path of jumpy armed officers can now get shot for no reason at all. Hypothetically, what would you do now if someone told you to 'run'? Before this shooting, presumably one would have thought 'Ah, danger - bomb - run!'. Now one will have to stop and think 'Will I get shot if I run?'. I mean, can't people see the problem here? This is the point (what I find barbaric about the situation) - Art expresses it so well, I'll repeat: "...hundreds of years of law just gets flushed down the toilet?"

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

What really amazes me is that when an innocent man is shot dead, people will cling to any justification, however minor, tenuous or untrustworthy, to avoid facing the fact that the world we live in just changed, again, for the worst. It's kind of interesting, from a sociological view, just how people react to this kind of thing.

Let's recap.

1. He lived in the same block of flats as suspected terrorists. Why does this make him a suspected terrorist? Why did the police not have a full list of EVERYONE living in that block of flats, nay the whole estate, with the actual suspected terrorists highlighted in bright pink and underlined? You know, just to make sure surveillance knew who they were watching. Might give the whole exercise some kind of point. INCOMPETENCE #1.

2. He was followed partly because allegedly 'he looked Asian'. So the police are now apparently racially discriminating when picking suspects. I actually don't have a problem with this, since looking for caucasian suicide bombers might slow investigations down. What does worry me is that, if this has become part of police procedure, why haven't the officers on the front line been shown WHAT A GODDAM ASIAN LOOKS LIKE?!? He looks about as Asian as I do. INCOMPETENCE #2.

3. The other reason he was followed was because he was wearing a 'big coat'. Why is this a possible terrorism alert? All of the other recent terrorists had bombs IN BAGS. None have, so far, employed the exploding anorak technique. Why can't the police discern a likely bomb from personal fashion tastes? INCOMPETENCE #3.

4. The police 'shot to kill' because a non-lethal shot may not stop him from detonating his coat. Granted, in an enclosed, underground area full of travellers, it would not be wise to let the man have a chance to detonate his overcoat. So why did the police wait until the man was in an enclosed, crowded area before stopping him? Surely OUTSIDE HIS FLAT would have been a safer, low-risk place to check to see whether or not he actually was wearing dangerous apparel? The police ACTUALLY WAITED until a man they say they thought was carrying a bomb was surrounded by people in an enclosed area. HELLO? Kind of risky way to test your hypothesis, no? INCOMPETENCE #4.

5. Despite other witness being unable to confirm the police did, in fact, make their presence known to the man, the police held down and, eight times, shot the man at point blank range, seven times in the head. Question: if he had stopped on command, he would have been in a crowded tube station with available exits. Any commuter will be able to confirm that hopping onto the actual train itself does not suddenly and miraculously activate the train and speed you away. So as a result of his actions he was now in a crowded train with NO available exits. How, please somebody explain, does him being on the train itself make him more of a risk than not being on the train? If they shot him because he was a risk, then he was a risk BEFORE he boarded, when they did nothing but follow him. If they intended to apprehend him, why does him being on the train stop this? It would be EASIER to apprehend him on the train than anywhere else. If they did not intend to apprehend him, because they thought he had a bomb, then they presumably didn't intend to apprehend him at any time previous to boarding the train, so they always intended on shooting him when they got the chance. INCOMPETENCIES #5 to... I lost count.

None of this makes any sense. There is no question that the police behaved in a competent, reasonable manner. This was a complete c0ck-up from beginning to end. They shot an innocent man seven times at point blank range (WHY SEVEN?!?) in the head based on the following information:
- they didn't know who he was;
- he wasn't white;
- he lived near terrorist suspects;
- he had odd clothes;
- he used the London Underground;
- IF he was commanded to stop, he put himself in a position where stopping was the only thing he could do.

Anyone who agrees that the above are ground for seven bullets in the brain are complete and utter psychopaths and I wish it had been you. I'd like to hear your families saying: "Well, under the circumstances I could see how the police thought young Kenneth was going to spontaneously combust and wipe out everyone around him."

 

[DM]

The Smoking Man

I didn't say that. I said, "So these police are not aware of the difference between Brazilian Portugese and Arabic?"

I was referring to what you said concerning the call:

The Smoking Man

It was also stated that he CALLED HIS COWORKER FROM THE STATION to tell him he would be late ... nobody got close enough to listen to the call?

The Smoking Man

Now even if he vaulted the turnstyles and was THEN challenged, he would assume he was going to get done for fare dodging and legged it to the train to get away.

That's a possibility but with all honesty and candour I don't see anyone doing such thing, bearing in mind as you know, that these police officers carried guns.

The Smoking Man

So ... does a guy wearing a suicide vest 'vault a turnstile'? He might 'fall down go boom!'

That view can potentially eliminate, and has indeed some logic, the gentleman vaulting the turnstile. However this is not concrete and the man could've still hurdled the barriers. Again, given hindsight one is able to analyse this behaviour and infer an opinion BUT the officers did not have time to stop and contemplate about 'fall down go boom!'.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I was referring to what you said concerning the call:

both were about the call.

That's a possibility but with all honesty and candour I don't see anyone doing such thing, bearing in mind as you know, that these police officers carried guns.

You're assuming he looked.

That view can potentially eliminate, and has indeed some logic, the gentleman vaulting the turnstile. However this is not concrete and the man could've still hurdled the barriers. Again, given hindsight one is able to analyse this behaviour and infer an opinion BUT the officers did not have time to stop and contemplate about 'fall down go boom!'.

Why do you always assume that the 'suicide bomber' knows what he's doing and the trained, professional anti-terrorist policeman with the Glock is clueless?

 

[DM]

The Smoking Man

Why do you always assume that the 'suicide bomber' knows what he's doing and the trained, professional anti-terrorist policeman with the Glock is clueless?

When you pursue a terrorist, your mind set isn't in 'he might fall and blow us away'. Instead, officers are stipulated to challenge the individual(s) and if he/she disobeys, they are resorted to pursue the suspect and in this case 'shoot-to-kill'.

 

[Burnsys]

When you pursue a terrorist, your mind set isn't in 'he might fall and blow us away'. Instead, officers are stipulated to challenge the individual(s) and if he/she disobeys, they are resorted to pursue the suspect and in this case 'shoot-to-kill'.

The Smoking Man i think you are talking to a wall..
it can't be explained more simple that the way The Smoking Man did it. But DM you are only quoting the little fragments that you think you have a little chace of arguing and forgeting and dismising the rest. That kind of conduct (very common in this forums) makes me want to blow up my self!

 

[vanesch]

That kind of conduct (very common in this forums) makes me want to blow up my self!

BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG...

Ooops, my gun went off...

 

[Art]

BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG...

Ooops, my gun went off...

shouldn't that be BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG?

 

[vanesch]

Vanesch... the US found out the consequences for not changing our actions in response to previous attacks and threats on 9/11.

So what ? Minor incident... Less dead than by car accidents in one year, and you now have a war on your hands, many more dead, a huge cost, lost liberties, lost friends, lost respect... You never did that for car accidents.
And moreover, bombs STILL explode.

 

[vanesch]

It's also why terrorism is such a serious threat. A suicide bombing in itself makes the affected people feel less secure. The inevitable human over-reaction, both of the populace and the authorities, makes the targeted people feel even more powerless and vulnerable. An attack on London subways affects more than 50+ that died in the attacks - it winds up affecting every single resident of London.

And that's why I propose the ignorance of the event, which would piss off the terrorists most, and reduce the damage of the event.

 

[Art]

It obviously isn't the intention of the police but many Asians in Britain are now more frightened than anyone.

They too are vulnerable to terrorist bombs but now have the added fear of being shot dead for appearing suspicious and being abused by white caucasians.

According to comments on the BBC home page the number of Asians using the underground has fallen by 75%. Not because of the fear of bombs but because they are in fear of their fellow travellers and the police.

 

[Smurf]

It obviously isn't the intention of the police but many Asians in Britain are now more frightened than anyone.

They too are vulnerable to terrorist bombs but now have the added fear of being shot dead for appearing suspicious and being abused by white caucasians.

According to comments on the BBC home page the number of Asians using the underground has fallen by 75%. Not because of the fear of bombs but because they are in fear of their fellow travellers and the police.

Excellent! That's a 75% drop in unharmed targets for evil terrorists.

 

[brewnog]

It obviously isn't the intention of the police but many Asians in Britain are now more frightened than anyone.
They too are vulnerable to terrorist bombs but now have the added fear of being shot dead for appearing suspicious and being abused by white caucasians.

Indeed, this is a real problem. This country has quite a culture of older people (aged 50 upwards) viewing people of Asian origin with contempt. It's not so much racial hatred as xenophobia. I think this series of incidents (and disregarding any possible increased risk of falling prey to the police) will only worsen the public perception of Asian-looking people, particularly in the eyes of this older age range, and do nothing to help their integration within the British community.

According to comments on the BBC home page the number of Asians using the underground has fallen by 75%. Not because of the fear of bombs but because they are in fear of their fellow travellers and the police.

I wonder by what percentage the number of passengers overall has fallen by.

 

[Art]

Indeed, this is a real problem. This country has quite a culture of older people (aged 50 upwards) viewing people of Asian origin with contempt. It's not so much racial hatred as xenophobia. I think this series of incidents (and disregarding any possible increased risk of falling prey to the police) will only worsen the public perception of Asian-looking people, particularly in the eyes of this older age range, and do nothing to help their integration within the British community.

In a previous thread I suggested that the terrorists goal was to marginalise the wider muslim population by driving a wedge between them and their non-muslim neighbours thus shifting the centre further to the right and so gathering new recruits who will begin to fall into the enlarged extremist far right. Current events suggest their policy is working.

I wonder by what percentage the number of passengers overall has fallen by.

The latest figure I saw said 27% of travellers overall in London were reviewing their travel arrangements.

 

[brewnog]

In a previous thread I suggested that the terrorists goal was to marginalise the wider muslim population by driving a wedge between them and their non-muslim neighbours thus shifting the centre further to the right and so gathering new recruits who will begin to fall into the enlarged extremist far right. Current events suggest their policy is working.

Clever, very clever.

If this is the case, then it would seem that curbing terrorism is even more of a difficult task than had been imagined otherwise.

The latest figure I saw said 27% of travellers overall in London were reviewing their travel arrangements.

Yeah, it's probably about right, but I reckon tube-faring numbers have plummeted over these past weeks (although I'm not in London to say). Both British Transport Police and the London Underground are saying that it's too early to give numbers yet, but it'll be interesting when they do, I'm sure.

 

[The Smoking Man]

The Smoking Man i think you are talking to a wall..
it can't be explained more simple that the way The Smoking Man did it. But DM you are only quoting the little fragments that you think you have a little chace of arguing and forgeting and dismising the rest. That kind of conduct (very common in this forums) makes me want to blow up my self!

Totally skipped over this little gem didn't he:

I suggest you read the actual http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?docid=1G1:96860752&refid=ink_tptd_np&skeyword=&teaser=&COOKIE=NO&token=5B3DF6035CDE4DFC88239D654E081010 then:

POLICE officers are to be issued with guidance on dealing with suicide bombers.

They will be told not to intervene or challenge a suspected suicide bomber, but to alert anti-terrorist experts immediately.

Patrol officers will then be offered advice on how to assess whether the suspect is a potential suicide, or someone planning to plant a bomb.

If a potential suicide is thought likely, officers will be advised on how best to clear people from the path of the bomber without alerting him.

A range of tactics can then be used against the bomber - including the use ...

 

[Smurf]

Clever, very clever.

If this is the case, then it would seem that curbing terrorism is even more of a difficult task than had been imagined otherwise.

What? You mean the 'flypaper' tactic might not work!?

it can't be!

(i never would've expected)

 

[Andy]

To suggest that you can tell a muslim apart from a brazilian portugese is to be honest rather ignorant. Muslims aren't just one colour, the majority are arabic in appearance, but there are lots of white muslims and lots of black muslims.

There has been no evidence presented whatsoever

Cant remember who posted that now (just got back from pub) but 90% of this evidence would appear to be complete hearsay, and media mumbo jumbo. On friday there was an eyewitness who defiently counted 5 shots fired, turns out it was 8? Nobody i know can count that bad, and this guy insisted that it was definately five shots fired not four not six but five. So how many of these eye witness's actually witnessed anything at all?

 

[Smurf]

To suggest that you can tell a muslim apart from a brazilian portugese is to be honest rather ignorant. Muslims aren't just one colour, the majority are arabic in appearance, but there are lots of white muslims and lots of black muslims.

You're ignorant. Anyone with half a brain can tell an arab, a south american and an asian apart, and if the Police can't, they ought to be trained to be able to. (see incompetence #2)

 

[brewnog]

To suggest that you can tell a muslim apart from a brazilian portugese is to be honest rather ignorant. Muslims aren't just one colour, the majority are arabic in appearance, but there are lots of white muslims and lots of black muslims.

You're ignorant. Anyone with half a brain can tell an arab, a south american and an asian apart, and if the Police can't, they ought to be trained to be able to. (see incompetence #2)

Telling the difference between a Muslim and a Brazilian is like telling the difference between a Christian and a Norweed.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Telling the difference between a Muslim and a Brazilian is like telling the difference between a Christian and a Norweed.

Two Words:

Richard Reid

 

[The Smoking Man]

Two Words:

Richard Reid

Two more ...

Cat Stevens

 

[Andy]

Dont take the piss you silly french man. Your assuming that all muslims are arabic.

 

[Nomy-the wanderer]

Nice point religion doesn't have to be regional..

 

[brewnog]

It's come to my attention that there are a number of differences between the US and the UK which are clouding peoples' views on the recent events. These aren't points to be argued or nitpicked on, but we should remember:

- "Normal" British police don't carry guns. Those officers which do are extremely highly trained, and are often ex-British Marines, and sometimes ex-SAS.

- 20 degrees Celsius is hot, as far as we're concerned. If I were in London in 20 degrees, I'd be wearing shorts and a t-shirt. Really.

- All this "we're not scared" stuff is nonsense, as far as many Brits are concerned. Many Londoners are scared, and to be honest, they're bloody well allowed to be. Why are they getting on with their lives? Because that's all they can do. For more on this, please see http://iam****ingterrified.com , apologies if the link is filtered. The "why" page is particularly informative.

- We know that US citizens have themselves experienced terrorist attacks on their own soil, and dealt with it in the way they best saw fit. That's just fine. But every single Englishman I've spoken to regarding this incident agrees that pulling that trigger was the right thing to do. They also bear a common sadness that the victim was innocent.

- London is an extremely diverse place, in terms of its multicultural nature. I know white Muslims, black Christians, Asian Christians and, well, white Christians all living in London. Londoners know, perhaps more than residents of any other city, how it's impossible to tell a persons' religion or country of origin just by looking at them. If the police had cause to be tracking this unfortunate chap, let me assure you, it wasn't just the colour of skin which aroused their suspicions.

- What difference does 2, 5 or 8 bullets make anyway? If you want someone dead as quickly as possible, it's not worth the risk of not taking them down quickly enough for the price of a few more bullets. Many would have started to ask questions if they'd used anything less than 5 bullets.


As I say, these aren't points to be argued on, but I think we should just bear in mind some of the cultural differences which we might have been forgetting about.

 

[Smurf]

Dont take the piss you silly french man. Your assuming that all muslims are arabic.

You're assuming UK, british-educated, british citizen, muslims would be suicide bombers.

 

[Andy]

your assuming that many young british muslims arent being trained in these terrorist camps as we speak.

 

[Smurf]

your assuming that many young british muslims arent being trained in these terrorist camps as we speak.

No. I'm not. I have made nor dictated to you any such assumption.


this from another forum

How are we to start with this, yes the police may well be jumpy, they may well be nervous given the situation, but would not a soldier in the field of battle feel even more so, yet they must obey the International Criminal Court Act. How about a householder woken by an intruder in the middle of the night, not knowing what that intruder intended to do they are expected to answer for their actions which will be considered on the cold light of day with 20X20 hindsight.

...

Is running from the police a capital crime now, punishable by summary public execution, these officers must face an enquiry they are trained in the use of firearms, I do not believe that training includes shooting a person who is already on the ground already being restrained by other police.

If we accept the fact that the police on our streets can go around shooting unarmed people and not face the consequences of their actions, yet ask our soldiers in battle situations to account for their every action, and householders to account for their actions against intruders, then I really do not think that will lead to a healthy society more like a police state.

 

[brewnog]

Smurf, I'm sure that the marksmen responsible will have to account for and justify their actions. However, I do not expect them to be convicted of any wrongdoing. We'll wait and see, it's silly to speculate any further at the moment though.

 

[The Smoking Man]

your assuming that many young british muslims arent being trained in these terrorist camps as we speak.

We do know the IRA were training in Libya and yet we got the Shoot-to-kill policy after the peace treaty was signed.

I guess 'shoot-to-kill' is easier to justify when the target doesn't have red hair and freckles and maybe dresses like Ali G.

 

[Andy]

You're assuming UK, british-educated, british citizen, muslims would be suicide bombers

Well yes i am, because yes they are.

Well there at the training camps anyway.

 

[Andy]

I guess 'shoot-to-kill' is easier to justify when the target doesn't have red hair and freckles and maybe dresses like Ali G.

Red hair and freckles is common to a scottish man, not an irishman. And Ali G was pretending to be black, not a muslim.

 

[Art]

We do know the IRA were training in Libya and yet we got the Shoot-to-kill policy after the peace treaty was signed.

No the IRA were receiving arms shipments from Libya. They were not training there though they might have been providing a consultancy service I guess/

I guess 'shoot-to-kill' is easier to justify when the target doesn't have red hair and freckles and maybe dresses like Ali G.

I thought it hilarious when John Stalker was given the role of investigating the 'shoot to kill' allegations.

He came up with the 'wrong' answer (despite British intelligence covertly breaking into his office near the end of his investigation and burning all the files he had compiled) so the British gov't who had appointed him to the task set about demolishing his personal credibility.
One of the slurs they used which I really liked was that he knew criminals. As an assistant chief constable I'd be amazed if he hadn't

Makes you almost nostalgic for the old conservative gov't

 

[The Smoking Man]

Red hair and freckles is common to a scottish man, not an irishman. And Ali G was pretending to be black, not a muslim.

Youre really not familiar with Muslim youth in the UK are you.

Nor the Irish apparently.

 

[Art]

Nor the Irish apparently.

There are actually very few red headed Irish folk.

Unless I just don't see them because they're all too embarrassed to come out in public

 

[Andy]

And you are?

I have many a relative that happen to be irish none of them are ginger, and a good friend of mine lives in an area that's prodominantly muslim and they dress pretty much the same as any normal person.

What dya think Ali G means when he says "is it cos i is black?"

 

[The Smoking Man]

No the IRA were receiving arms shipments from Libya. They were not training there though they might have been providing a consultancy service I guess/

Pentagon officials have released a Top Secret map that illustrates how a type of mortar was first developed by Col Gadaffi before being modified by IRA members trained in Libya in the 1970s for use in Northern Ireland.

Also: Families Acting for Innocent Relatives (FAIR)

And:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,2763,954530,00.html]An[/PLAIN] IRA intelligence officer who turned Special Branch informer yesterday described how he was interrogated by a member of the Provisional's Northern Command who claimed to have been trained in Libya.

Alexander 'Sandy' Lynch, aged 35, told Belfast crown court: 'He said that it didn't really matter if I recognised him because where I was going I wouldn't be able to tell any one.'

http://www.ulsterflash.iofm.net/plo.htm Students of terrorism can easily trace the IRA's connections to the PLO and its numerous factions back to the 1970s and 1980s, when IRA and PLO operatives trained together in Libya and the Bekaa Valley. Today, IRA involvement is ongoing in Colombia, where al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad factions — to name a few — are engaged in illegal arms and drug trafficking and money-laundering. Recent revelations about al Qaeda training methods has been also identified as carrying some of the IRA's trademarks. If the EU and the Bush administration would unify their terrorist lists with "global reach" to include all terrorist organizations — including the IRA, Hezbollah, all Palestinian terror organizations, and the ELN — we might then have a better chance to win the war on terrorism.

Sorry to disapoint you.

 

[The Smoking Man]

And you are?

Apparently ... YES ... http://www.procurealltheinteresting.info/celtic/Irish-Red-Hair.html

What dya think Ali G means when he says "is it cos i is black?"

You've never heard of Asian Dub Foundation?

You are truly out of it aren't you.

Try listening to some of the work by Starring Sanjeev, Meera Syal, Kulvinder Ghir and Nina Wadia.

 

[brewnog]

TSM, from your own link:

Q: What percent of the Irish population have red hair?
A: About 4%

On the other hand, Rosalind Harding (John Radcliffe Institute of Molecular Medicine in Oxford) estimates that approximately 10% of Scots have red hair. (http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/nredhair.htm )

What's your point anyway? I'm lost.

 

[The Smoking Man]

- 20 degrees Celsius is hot, as far as we're concerned. If I were in London in 20 degrees, I'd be wearing shorts and a t-shirt. Really.

Yeah ... we used to get the Sheffield crowd in York all the time in the middle of winter wearing t-shirts because they were too cheap to check their coats or they feared losing them when they were paralytic.

We're talking about a Brazilian wearing a sweatshirt.

Was he wrong not to immediately adopt your tolerance to cold?

I was born in Guisborough, just south of Middlesbrough.

I now live in Suzhou and sweat like a pig. I was out last night in my golf shirt and shorts and was getting some strange looks from the locals ... and I've lived here two years so they all know me.

They were all in long sleeved shirts, sweaters and Jeans. (The temperature had dropped down to the upper 70's)

So following my mother's advice is grounds for murder now? "Take a sweater" she would always say.

 

[The Smoking Man]

What's your point anyway? I'm lost.

I couldn't see yours either.

Let's change my original quote to 'brown hair and blue eyes' or 'blonde hair and green eyes' or 'hair dyed purple with a bolt through your nose' then.

What is your point?

The fact is he was tagged because he 'looked asian' and this parctice took place long after the British government had been dealing with terrorism in the streets for decades.

Now they have a shoot-to-kill policy because they have a visible racial minority.

You just attempted to derail the original premise by quoting statistics on the number of people in Ireland with 'red hair' as opposed to the number of people in the IRA who do not appear Asian.

This is South London. Are you trying to tell me there weren't some young white kids wearing hooded sweatshirts and baseball caps in the area?

So what WAS your point anyway?

 

[brewnog]

Yeah ... we used to get the Sheffield crowd in York all the time in the middle of winter wearing t-shirts because they were too cheap to check their coats or they feared losing them when they were paralytic.

Ha, I'll assume you said that with tongue in cheek, and will let it go.

We're talking about a Brazilian wearing a sweatshirt.
Was he wrong not to immediately adopt your tolerance to cold?

No, I suppose not, I guess the temperature issue is a moot point. But none-the-less, if the police thought he looked as though he was trying to conceal something, then I don't blame them for keeping track of him. If the converse had been true, and it had been blatently evident that there was no chance that he was carrying a bomb, he wouldn't have been shot.

The fact is he was tagged because he 'looked asian' and this parctice took place long after the British government had been dealing with terrorism in the streets for decades.

Now they have a shoot-to-kill policy because they have a visible racial minority.

While the threat seems to come solely from people fitting a physical description (whether it be female, short, white, fat, whatever) I don't see any problem in using this information to narrow down searches. If police are looking for a short, blue-eared chap in a wheelchair then it would be prudent not to target tall, green-eared chappettes on stilts, but it's getting silly now, I'm sure you agree.

You just attempted to derail the original premise by quoting statistics on the number of people in Ireland with 'red hair' as opposed to the number of people in the IRA who do not appear Asian.

I wasn't trying to derail anything, I was interested by the Irish/Scottish ginger numbers, since it was a point of discussion (between Art, Andy, and yourself, and not me).

This is South London. Are you trying to tell me there weren't some young white kids wearing hooded sweatshirts and baseball caps in the area?

So what WAS your point anyway?

I am at a loss to see what this has got to do with anything. I didn't have a point I wished to make, which is why I have remained quiet through most of this discussion. I just didn't think your Irish/ginger thing added up. Perhaps Andy is the one to carry this on with?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Ha, I'll assume you said that with tongue in cheek, and will let it go.

Half in cheek ... Hen parties are still a nasty reality ...

No, I suppose not, I guess the temperature issue is a moot point. But none-the-less, if the police thought he looked as though he was trying to conceal something, then I don't blame them for keeping track of him. If the converse had been true, and it had been blatently evident that there was no chance that he was carrying a bomb, he wouldn't have been shot.

They also started off saying 'padded jacket' and then reduced it to 'Fleece' when they realized they had CCTV.

While the threat seems to come solely from people fitting a physical description (whether it be female, short, white, fat, whatever) I don't see any problem in using this information to narrow down searches. If police are looking for a short, blue-eared chap in a wheelchair then it would be prudent not to target tall, green-eared chappettes on stilts, but it's getting silly now, I'm sure you agree.

Not when the physical description includes 1 billion people in India, most of South America, Greece, Italy, Sicilly, Hungary, Spain, Portugal, Filipino, North Western Chinese etc.

Every one of those people now has a reason to worry ... to feel terrorized becasue they fit the 'profile'.

God help them if they feel the need to carry a rucksack.

After all, they did target a Brazilian!

I am at a loss to see what this has got to do with anything. I didn't have a point I wished to make, which is why I have remained quiet through most of this discussion. I just didn't think your Irish/ginger thing added up. Perhaps Andy is the one to carry this on with?

The Red Hair and Freckles was an obscure reference to show the futility of racial profiling. I am sure you see my point when I have just listed over 1/4 of the population of the Earth in the races that meet that profile.

Edit: Brazil included.

 

[brewnog]

Half in cheek ... Hen parties are still a nasty reality ...

Ooh I can imagine! If it's any consolation, they're just as bad when they're here too.

They also started off saying 'padded jacket' and then reduced it to 'Fleece' when they realized they had CCTV.Not when the physical description includes 1 billion people in India, most of South America, Greece, Italy, Sicilly, Hungary, Spain, Portugal, Filipino, North Western Chinese etc.

Every one of those people now has a reason to worry ... to feel terrorized becasue they fit the 'profile'.

While a description fitting so many people obviously can't be used on its own to positively identify someone, you can use it to negatively identify someone who doesn't fit the description. Looking for a male globally still rules over 3 billion people 'in', but it still rules over 3 billion people 'out', if you see what I mean.

After all, they did target a Brazilian! The Red Hair and Freckles was an obscure reference to show the futility of racial profiling. I am sure you see my point when I have just listed over 1/4 of the population of the Earth in the races that meet that profile.

Ok, fair enough. I still reckon the police acted correctly though, it's just a horrible shame that it cost the life of an innocent chap.

Would you mind briefly restating your position, I'm a tad too lazy to trawl through the thread again! Do you consider yourself a Brit (haven't 'met' you properly yet!)? Do you agree with the momentary decision to pull the trigger, even if you don't agree with the operational procedure which occurred up until that point? Just curious!

 

[The Smoking Man]

Would you mind briefly restating your position, I'm a tad too lazy to trawl through the thread again! Do you consider yourself a Brit (haven't 'met' you properly yet!)? Do you agree with the momentary decision to pull the trigger, even if you don't agree with the operational procedure which occurred up until that point? Just curious!

I condemn this thing from the start to the finish.

Confrontation is totally against the rules ... I have posted links to this a couple of times:

POLICE officers are to be issued with guidance on dealing with suicide bombers.

They will be told not to intervene or challenge a suspected suicide bomber, but to alert anti-terrorist experts immediately.

Patrol officers will then be offered advice on how to assess whether the suspect is a potential suicide, or someone planning to plant a bomb.

If a potential suicide is thought likely, officers will be advised on how best to clear people from the path of the bomber without alerting him.

A range of tactics can then be used against the bomber - including the use ...

But it seems that every decision since the discovery of the address in the rucksack of one of the unexploded bombs was inevitably the wrong decision.

Most people see this only from the point of view of one thing ... He ran.

Fair enough... BUT

The police had the place under watch for 24 hours and had done nothing to secure or search it.

http://electroniciraq.net/news/2074.shtml][/PLAIN]
What is already known, therefore, is that almost 24 hours before they saw de Menezes emerge from his house, police had put it under surveillance based on information they found at the scene of one of the attempted bombings at lunchtime the day before. If the overriding goal of the police is to prevent further attacks, why did they not raid the house right away? They might have discovered sooner what they found out too late -- that de Menezes was totally uninvolved in any terrorist plot. The police clearly had more than a "split-second" to act and they need to explain why they did not act.

A person erroneously tagged by racial profiling was seen exiting a multi-occupancy dwelling and followed from an unpopulated area to a populated area ... A subway.

I have variously seen that he boarded a bus and that he didn't. If he did ... Target #1 seems to have been skipped and we have seen two of the terrorists a) blow one up and b) fail to blow one up ... the source of this address.

The explosives that MAY have come from this address have been delivered in Rucksacks containing 1.5 gallons of liquid explosive. With him, they suspected a 'vest' which implies 'C4' or 'Semtex' or TNT or another solid form of explosive not as yet demonstrated.

He did not have a rucksack.

He had on a baggy sweat shirt, not a coat, a baseball cap and baggy pants. This sounds like standard fare for South London.

He got off the bus or arrived at the tube were there is a large plaza.

Presumably, the police had been in communication with the terrorist centre response teams by radio and as per the above instructions, if they believed they had a threat, could easily have shut the gates at the subway, evacuated and/or established a perimiter with the multiple automatic-rifle carrying regular forces patroling ALL subways in London.

Once ringed, he could then have been challenged or rather the terrorist squad could have taken over.

As it was, he was allowed to make a phone call with nobody able to recognize he was speaking Portugese.

He was then allowed to stand in line for a ticked thus surrounding himself with bystanders all of whom have stated he was not 'warned' but that they merely put on their blue hats and drew their weapons.

He had been mugged by Brits less than two weeks before according to his relatives.

Now, for whatever reason, he jumped the turnstiles ... they are 5 feet high in an effort to prevent fare dodging... In a vest? Olympic hurdles are set lower and this guy in a pair of baggy pants seems to have made it with no effort and leaving the police eating dust.

Was he scared of attackers or fare dodging ... well if he was standing in line for a ticket up to this point, indications are he was scared. Maybe he thought there was a suicide bomber in the area. Has anyone thought of that?

So he runs down an escalator ... implies it was empty since he was running.

Why not shoot him before he got to the train and risk detonating him there?

For that matter, why was there any trains arriving at the station? If the police were in contact by radio, why hadn't the trains been moved from the station to the tunnel and others prevented from arriving?

Why hadn't all the passengers been moved into the WWII bomb shelters at the station less than 20 feet from the trains which were hardened against V1 rockets and could house over 8,000 people? (Nobody, had planned this in any emergency scenario for this station?)

They had over 20 minutes from him leaving his house to his arrival at the station. Given the previous targets, no contingency was enacted at any level. No evacuations as per the 2003 instructions were put into place.

It is said he 'stumbled when he got onto the train and looked distressed ... He also seems to have had a bullet in his shoulder ... I know this is speculation but ... was he shot in the shoulder as he entered?

He was then taken down by three men who had him pinned faced down.

He then got 7 bullets in the base of his skull at point blank range.

Are you telling me the man couldn't have had a hand run down his back to see if there was a vest present? Lift up his sweatshirt?

No ... this is the worst operation in history for cockups.

This man was executed because of his skin colour making him fit the profile and then every option taken by he police being the wrong one becaue they believed they had their man.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Do you consider yourself a Brit (haven't 'met' you properly yet!)? Do you agree with the momentary decision to pull the trigger, even if you don't agree with the operational procedure which occurred up until that point? Just curious!

I consider myself a bit of a mutt really. I have dual Canadian/British nationality and have worked in 6 countries around the world for an extended period of time.

I lived on Mindanao for 3 years studying the martial arts as a bit of a sabatical. It was in a moslem community. I owned a small farm and had a rebel NPA working for me and I knew the head of the Militia head (I was married to his sister).

I speak a few languages.

 

[Art]

Sorry to disapoint you.

That was just silly propaganda. Libya was very unpopular in the US and the US was a major source of funding for the IRA and so the British and US gov't tried to bracket Libya and the IRA together to cut off funding from american supporters. They also claimed at that time the IRA were connected to Hezbullah, Hamas and the Basque ETA group. Yeah right..

The guy credited with the design of the IRA's mortar is James Monaghan.

The IRA trained extensively in the ROI. When you think about it what possible training could the Libyans supply in the desert that would be useful in N. Ireland?

As for quoting 'Friends of Ulster' and F.A.I.R. as authoritative refs. You are surely kidding I could quote 'An Phoblact' as a rebuttal but I wouldn't insult your intelligence.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

- "Normal" British police don't carry guns. Those officers which do are extremely highly trained, and are often ex-British Marines, and sometimes ex-SAS.

Do you know the first thing about the shooter? Do you honestly think if you offer your opinion that some armed police are ex-military, people will roll over and say 'oh, okay - he must have done the right thing'?

- 20 degrees Celsius is hot, as far as we're concerned. If I were in London in 20 degrees, I'd be wearing shorts and a t-shirt. Really.

This is really winding me up. The guy was Brazillian. You are using the fact that he was dressed up a bit warmer than you would be as a justification for blowing his fugging brains out. Some people won't go outdoors without two vests, a shirt, a jumper and an overcoat IN ANY WEATHER! You are a shining example of the callous, as-long-as-its-not-me contingent of the British public and all I can say is I hope a loved one of yours is the next 'justified, but sadly innocent victim'. You can then sing your patriotic praise of British armed police until you choke and you won't hear a peep from me.

- All this "we're not scared" stuff is nonsense, as far as many Brits are concerned. Many Londoners are scared, and to be honest, they're bloody well allowed to be. Why are they getting on with their lives? Because that's all they can do. For more on this, please see http://iam****ingterrified.com , apologies if the link is filtered. The "why" page is particularly informative.

So you feel safer now innocent people are having the heads opened up on public transport in front of terrified bystanders?

But every single Englishman I've spoken to regarding this incident agrees that pulling that trigger was the right thing to do. They also bear a common sadness that the victim was innocent.

Every single Englishman you've spoken to is a scumbag, to be frank. Anyone adopting the notion that it's better to brutally murder someone rather than spend a moment to determine whether or not they're innocent or guilty can go to hell.

- London is an extremely diverse place, in terms of its multicultural nature. I know white Muslims, black Christians, Asian Christians and, well, white Christians all living in London. Londoners know, perhaps more than residents of any other city, how it's impossible to tell a persons' religion or country of origin just by looking at them. If the police had cause to be tracking this unfortunate chap, let me assure you, it wasn't just the colour of skin which aroused their suspicions.

Sounds like a reason not to judge by colour of skin AT ALL to me. And you're right: "he looked Asian" was only one of the reasons this man was nailed to the floor and blasted in the head 7 times. The others were 'he was overdressed' and 'he lived in the wrong place'.

- What difference does 2, 5 or 8 bullets make anyway?

Well, if one bullet in the brain is enough to kill someone, why would someone choose to fire seven. It's FAR TOO MANY bullets than required, so why did he do it? There is no good reason. The logical answer is something even I can't bring myself to say, but with my experience of British police, doens't actually surprise me.

As I say, these aren't points to be argued on, but I think we should just bear in mind some of the cultural differences which we might have been forgetting about.

Yes, British police are the scum of the Earth. That was my opinion before this incident; that's my opinion now, and it's an opinion based on experience.

Smurf, I'm sure that the marksmen responsible will have to account for and justify their actions. However, I do not expect them to be convicted of any wrongdoing. We'll wait and see, it's silly to speculate any further at the moment though.

For once, I agree with you. The officer, whatever his motives for landing 7 bullets in an innocent man's brain, will not be convicted of anything. Remember the officer caught on CCTV stopping a black man recently released from prison. Three pigs surrounded the guy who backed away. They grabbed him, sprayed mace in his face over and over, unaware they were being filmed. Worst part: a passer-by asked them to stop, so the pig went after him as well, pointing the mace can right in his face. Remember what happened straight after? The cop was temporarily removed from front-line duty. Wasn't even suspended. Remember what happened after that? No me neither - it never came up again. The police look after their own.

Moral of this story: white British policemen can be violent, racist, abusive criminals in uniforms. Anyone see The Secret Policeman? Obviously, good coppers do exist. I've met one. Unfortunately I've met 20 coppers who were either incompetent, apathetic or, more commonly, thugs and bullies in uniforms. Worse than politicians. Worse, even, than judges. Never, ever to be trusted.

 

[Smurf]

I'm with you El Hombre.

I'm constantly reminded of this guy in another forum who once said to me that he thinks there's a certain kind of person that will automatically defend authority and power, not because he's assessed the situation and come to a conclusion, just because he doesn't know how to not do so.

I thought it was interesting but unfounded at first. I'm becoming even more superstitious though. Or maybe fear just rules all.

Have you seen any of the theories that it was an intentional killing?