News The Ultimate Loss of Civil Liberties: Innocent Man Shot Dead in UK

[Townsend]

Yeah, I guess you could call being terrified into running from armed men and getting tackled onto the floor of a subway station quick and painless.

I said, "if I was to be killed for nothing." And what I meant was that if I was in his place and the police were going to kill me for nothing I would rather they shoot me in the head than in the body.

Why, are you so frickin cynical smurf? You always assume the worst in people...

 

[Smurf]

Why, are you so frickin cynical smurf?

I'm hoping to find out one day.

You always assume the worst in people...

You have no idea how true that is.

 

[The Smoking Man]

It is believed that Mr de Menezes, who is thought to have spoken good English, may have been working illegally in Britain for up to four years. He is thought to have panicked when confronted by armed men as he was about to buy a Tube ticket at about 10am. Witnesses said that he hurdled the ticket barrier, ran down the escalator and stumbled into a carriage.

Three armed officers who pounced on him, might have thought his padded jacket contained explosives. One of them shot five bullets from a handgun into his head in front of horrified passengers.

The man, who was wearing a padded jacket that officers might have thought contained explosives, was pounced on by three officers, one of whom shot five low-velocity bullets from a handgun into his head in front of horrified passengers.

One senior source said last night: "We were led to an address in Stockwell by documents found in the abandoned rucksacks and by our intelligence. This house, which now appears to be a multi-occupancy address, was put under surveillance."

This gets better by the minute.

His clothing and behaviour added to their suspicions.

Let this be a warning to any young rap artists out there. Padded coats and wool hats in the summer are definitely not smart. Pull up your pants and stop walking funny.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Why, are you so frickin cynical smurf? You always assume the worst in people...

Oh, pish, if he was truly cynical he would have suggested that he would have preferred a body shot. That way he could have sued for damages after being declared innocent.

Ask me ... I'm the master cynic around here.

 

[Astronuc]

Very sad...

Five shots is what bothers me. What the heck is the point in dumping five rounds into someone's head? I mean...two shots in the base of the skull is more than enough to kill anyone.

Retribution. Presumably the officer took the suspect as a terrorist bomber - and he simply (in pure unadulterated hatred) fired not one but five bullets into another human being - as in take this you ************ .

Well I can't read someone else's mind. I can only review the evidence and wonder/speculate as to the motivation to shoot someone multiple times when only one bullet would be sufficient.

Perhaps it was a message to terrorists - this is what will happen if you try this.

 

[Art]

Oh, pish, if he was truly cynical he would have suggested that he would have preferred a body shot. That way he could have sued for damages after being declared innocent.

Ask me ... I'm the master cynic around here.

I think the prize for the most cynical piece of work goes to the author of the article you cited suggesting he may have been an illegal immigrant as if that somehow lessens the brutality of the killing.

 

[Art]

Retribution. Presumably the officer took the suspect as a terrorist bomber - and he simply (in pure unadulterated hatred) fired not one but five bullets into another human being - as in take this you ************ .

Well I can't read someone else's mind. I can only review the evidence and wonder/speculate as to the motivation to shoot someone multiple times when only one bullet would be sufficient.

Perhaps it was a message to terrorists - this is what will happen if you try this.

I'd say the message to the terrorists is you can move on to new targets; now that they have the Metropolitan Police doing their work for them on the underground.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I think the prize for the most cynical piece of work goes to the author of the article you cited suggesting he may have been an illegal immigrant as if that somehow lessens the brutality of the killing.

I read that as a reason he might run when confronted with the authorities.

Kind of like yelling immagracione (sp?) in LA.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I'd say the message to the terrorists is you can move on to new targets; now that they have the Metropolitan Police doing their work for them on the underground.

Okay, you're the new official cynic. I bow in the presence of the master.

 

[Smurf]

Oh, pish, if he was truly cynical he would have suggested that he would have preferred a body shot. That way he could have sued for damages after being declared innocent.

Ask me ... I'm the master cynic around here.

That's not cynical, that's just stupid. I would have preferred to not have been chased and shot at while on my way to work or wherever. Evidently this society doesn't believe in that any more. <-THATS cynical

I think the prize for the most cynical piece of work goes to the author of the article you cited suggesting he may have been an illegal immigrant as if that somehow lessens the brutality of the killing.

Also not cynicism.

 

[Art]

I read that as a reason he might run when confronted with the authorities.

Kind of like yelling immagracione (sp?) in LA.

Perhaps I'm being too cynical I read it in the context of this extract from the article I referenced earlier

This attempt to blame Mr Menezes for his own death continues unabated. It was hinted that he might have been an illegal immigrant, as if that justifies what occurred. It has been argued that it was “irresponsible” of him to wear a quilted jacket in July, as if that were a crime. There are, furthermore, “no excuses”, it is intoned, for the fact that he ran when armed plainclothed police officers shouted at him.

 

[Evo]

Retribution. Presumably the officer took the suspect as a terrorist bomber - and he simply (in pure unadulterated hatred) fired not one but five bullets into another human being - as in take this you ************ .

Well I can't read someone else's mind. I can only review the evidence and wonder/speculate as to the motivation to shoot someone multiple times when only one bullet would be sufficient.

Perhaps it was a message to terrorists - this is what will happen if you try this.

I think that the multiple shots were accidental, a panicked officer, insufficient training, probably only fired the weapon in a few controlled training situations before this. It was an automatic weapon, he could have accidently fired, and it could have gone off multiple times. Even if he intended to fire, he probably was suprised it went off so many times. These people are given this power but are improperly trained to use it. I blame the higher ups here more than the officers. You don't give automatic weapons to children, or the improperly trained.

 

[Art]

Also not cynicism.

Yes cynic -

In informal use, derived from the meanings described hereabove, cynicism may refer to heartless calculating behavior or thinking

From your reference.

 

[Art]

I think that the multiple shots were accidental, a panicked officer, insufficient training, probably only fired the weapon in a few controlled training situations before this. It was an automatic weapon, he could have accidently fired, and it could have gone off multiple times. Even if he intended to fire, he probably was suprised it went off so many times. These people are given this power but are improperly trained to use it. I blame the higher ups here more than the officers. You don't give automatic weapons to children, or the improperly trained.

I agree. I don't believe it was done out of pure badness just raw incompetence.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I think that the multiple shots were accidental, a panicked officer, insufficient training, probably only fired the weapon in a few controlled training situations before this. It was an automatic weapon, he could have accidently fired, and it could have gone off multiple times. Even if he intended to fire, he probably was suprised it went off so many times. These people are given this power but are improperly trained to use it. I blame the higher ups here more than the officers. You don't give automatic weapons to children, or the improperly trained.

I'd hate to see him in a firefight then. If this thing carried a magazine of 14 bullets he could only return fire twice under pressure and then have to re-load.

This was a pistol and the mosnomer 'automatic' should actually be 'semi-automatic' since I don't know of any pistol issued to the police of Britain that will 'unload itself' into a victim if the trigger remains pressed.

Although most of the pictures surrounding this event have been the uniformed officers at ground level in their Kevlar and holding fully automatic short rifles, the witness stated these were plain clothes officers using "a black handgun in his left hand" which was corroborated by the witness interviewed at the opposite end of the carriage.

 

[Smurf]

Yes cynic - From your reference.

And you call that calculating and thinking?

Besides, it's wrong anyways. Just like 'funner' isn't a word, cynicism doens't mean that.

 

[The Smoking Man]

And you call that calculating and thinking?

Besides, it's wrong anyways. Just like 'funner' isn't a word, cynicism doens't mean that.

Shades of 'the definition of 'it' batman'!

Let's not forget who the bad guys are here.

Back to your corners.

Come out fighting and slagging off the 'powers that be'.

 

[Smurf]

Shades of 'the definition of 'it' batman'!

Let's not forget who the bad guys are here.

Back to your corners.

Come out fighting and slagging off the 'powers that be'.

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What?

 

[Townsend]

I think that the multiple shots were accidental, a panicked officer, insufficient training, probably only fired the weapon in a few controlled training situations before this. It was an automatic weapon, he could have accidently fired, and it could have gone off multiple times.

automatic as in fully automatic or semi-automatic. I have fired well over fifty different pistols and countless thousands of rounds. In fact in one afternoon I went through 2,500 9mm rounds. In all my times of shooting I have never accidentally fired five rounds. And to have them all hit their mark, even at point blank range, is something that cannot happen by accident.

Even if he intended to fire, he probably was suprised it went off so many times. These people are given this power but are improperly trained to use it.

The natural reaction is to stop firing...not keep on firing. Unless he was angry and emotionally charged.

I blame the higher ups here more than the officers. You don't give automatic weapons to children, or the improperly trained.

I have no idea what kind of training this guy had. I bet it was sufficient to know how to operate a the weapon he was using.

By the way Evo, I am not trying to be a prick I just don't see the possibility that this could ever happen by accident.

 

[Smurf]

I'm with townie on this one. The guy was either emotionally charged or fully intended to shoot him that many times.

 

[The Smoking Man]

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..
.

What?

Sorry ... had a partially lucid moment.

Won't happen again:

lu·cid (lsd) KEY

ADJECTIVE:

1. Easily understood; intelligible.
2. Mentally sound; sane or rational.
3. Translucent or transparent. See Synonyms at clear.

 

[Evo]

I'm with townie on this one. The guy was either emotionally charged or fully intended to shoot him that many times.

Well, I defer to your better knowledge. He may have been inexperienced and not ready for this type of assignment.

 

[Smurf]

Well, I defer to your better knowledge. He may have been inexperienced and not ready for this type of assignment.

Which is why he was emotionally charged or made the sever misjudgment that such action was necessary. What it wasn't was his finger slipping, or that kind of accident.

 

[Art]

Well, I defer to your better knowledge.

Mmmm I wouldn't defer just yet Evo,
The papers say the police were using Glocks. If these were the Glock 18 version which comes with either a 17, 20, or 31 round magazine then there is a selector switch on them for semi or fully automatic fire. Oh, and they also come in black. BTW The Glock 18 was designed specifically for SWAT teams and the like.

Their Glock automatic handguns were passed to Scotland Yard’s laboratory at Lambeth, South London. The scene of the shooting inside Stockwell Tube station was sealed off for scientists to take measurements and photographs

above from timesonline.

The law enforcement and military issue GLOCK 18 select-fire machine pistol is virtually identical to the full-size GLOCK 17, but with the addition of a selector switch on the left rear of the slide that allows fully automatic fire.

http://www.glock.com/9x19.htm

 

[rachmaninoff]

Setting aside the particulars, I think this goes to the heart of the issue:

After the killing of Mr. Menezes, the shoot-to-kill policy was staunchly defended. "We are living in unique times of unique evil, at war with an enemy of unspeakable brutality, and I have no doubt that now, more than ever, the principle is right despite the chance, tragically, of error," Lord Stevens said in the opinion article on Sunday.

Even Ken Livingstone, the London mayor and a longtime champion of civil liberties, defended the police officers involved in the shooting death, saying in a statement released Saturday night that the terrorists, not the police, were to blame.

"This tragedy has added another victim to the toll of deaths for which the terrorists bear responsibility," Mr. Livingstone said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/25/international/europe/25london.html

As if their intentions absolve them of all culpability, of guilt; as if they are not their own conscious agents. Mr. Livingstone tells us that when police do anything wrong, in the fight against terrorism, is really "the terrorists' fault" by proxy. It's nothing less than an insult.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

Okay, I got it. The man was an ELECTRICIAN, right? Seen leaving that block of flats. So he was probably doing a house-call, as electricians do during the daytime. He's called out to this flat.

INNOCENT VICTIM: "What seems to be the problem?"

TYPICAL UNPUNISHED CRIMINAL: "Well, we laid a load of bombs the other day but for some reason they didn't go off properly. We think there's something wrong with the electrics. Can you take a look?"

INNOCENT VICTIM: "No way! I'm not helping you make bombs. I'm leaving right this instant to catch a tube back to the flat I struggle so hard to pay for. Scr ew you guys."

INNOCENT VICTIM leaves flat, thinking: "Jeez, the nerve of terrorists these days", unaware that in the distance he is being observed through binoculars.

TYPICAL BRITISH MORON 1: "Hey, check this guy out. He's dark skinned and is wearing a really big coat, and I think I read somewhere or dreamed maybe that people who wear big coats are terrorists. Let's follow him."

ATYPICALLY LESS MORONIC BRIT 2: "Okay, but let's not forget British weather isn't exactly hot by standards of people who, for sake of argument, come from hotter climates... the kind of people who may look... darker-skinned than us?"

TYPICAL BRITISH MORON 1: "Well, in that case he's just some immigrant no-one cares about."

MORE MORONIC FOR KNOWING MORONIC BRIT 1 BRIT 2: "Groovy. I hate immigrants."

They follow INNOCENT VICTIM to the Underground.

TYPICAL BRITISH MORON 1: "Hey, check this out. The guy in the big coat is entering the Undeground. Say... isn't that where the bombs went off?"

MORE MORONIC FOR KNOWING MORONIC BRIT 1 BRIT 2: "Yeah, and why else would someone enter the Underground if not to plant bombs?"

PASSER BY: "Well, it is the most-used mode of transport in London."

TYPICAL BRITISH MORON 1: "Hey, we're undercover. You can't say anything to us because we're invisible. Get lost."

INNOCENT VICTIM: Jeez, thank God I'm leaving this scary place and getting away from all those terrorists who may try and kill me.

TYPICAL BRITISH MORON 1: "Hey, if he gets on that train, we'll lose him."

MORE MORONIC BY THE MINUTE BRIT 2: "And he may detonate his big coat and kill innocents."

TYPICAL BRITISH MORON 1: "That's a triumph of deduction. Let's follow him."

INNOCENT VICTIM: "Jesus, I'm going to miss the tube. I better run for it."

TYPICAL BRITISH MORON 1: "Look! He's running. He must be guilty of something in a big coat like that running towards those bleeping train doors."

MORE MORONIC BY THE MINUTE BRIT 2: "Good call brother. No-one ever runs towards the train unless they're criminals. Especially if the train is already here and is likely to leave before you get to it if you're too slow. Stop him!"

The MORON BROTHERS run after INNOCENT VICTIM and jump on him.

MORE MORONIC BY THE MINUTE BRIT 2: "What do we do now? Tell him his rights?"

TYPICAL BRITISH MORON 1: "Well, technically we have no grounds to arrest him. Unless Blair stays in power for another full term, we're unlikely to be given power to arrest people on charge of over-dressing whilst being black. I suggest we push him down so he can't take his coat off."

MORE MORONIC BY THE MINUTE BRIT 2: "Right!"

The MORON BROTHERS push INNOCENT VICTIM to the floor.

MORE MORONIC BY THE MINUTE BRIT 2: "Now what?"

TYPICAL BRITISH MORON 1: "Well, he hasn't commited a crime, he hasn't detonated any bombs and he isn't praying to Allah. If we turn back now we'll have lost all faith people have in the police being competant."

MORE MORONIC BY THE MINUTE BRIT 2: "So we trump up a charge and make it look like we've done good?"

TYPICAL BRITISH MORON 1: "Can't. Human rights groups are hot on keeping statistics on false charges made against ethnic minorities. I say we look to our past for inspiration."

The MORON BROTHERS try to think.

MORE MORONIC BY THE MINUTE BRIT 2: "We could apply the old witch-ducking technique. If we drown him and he dies, he's innocent, otherwise he's guilty of hygiene laws for being a dirty immigrant floating in clean rivers."

TYPICAL BRITISH MORON 1: "Good thinking. But I don't see him co-operating. It'll be a lot easier to get him to a river, and make sure he's innocent, by killing him beforehand."

MOST MORONIC BRIT 2: "Okay. But remember he's wearing a big coat. Best shoot him twice in the head. Three times to be certain."

TYPICAL BRITISH MORON 1 fires five rounds in INNOCENT VICTIM's brain.

PASSER-BY: "Are you guys terrorists?"

TYPICAL BRITISH MORON 1: "WE'RE UNDERCOVER! GO AWAY!"

MOST MORONIC BRIT 2: "Yeah, he's innocent."

TYPICAL BRITISH MORON 1: "Innocent, yeah. Definitely. What now?"

MOST MORONIC BRIT 2: "Well, if my eyes do not fail me, I'd say that repeating sign on every single step leading out of the tube says that there's a McDonalds only 200 yards away, and keeping the peace is hungry work."

PASSER-BY: "Terrorists! Heeeeeeeeeeelp!"

TYPICAL BRITISH MORON 1: "Hold that thought, brother. Our work is not yet done."


Yeah, under the circumstances... who would have done differently? BTW: to avoid confusion due to typos, always double-check when typing the words 'uniformed' or 'uninformed'.

 

[Delta]

I take it from the suttleties in your story, you believe the officer was at fault.

Consider the circumstances:

• 8 explosions happening all over london killing 56 so far, luckily the last four were unsuccessful. The terrorists of the last four still at large.

• The residence that the man came from was already under surveillance.

• The man wore a large coat (maybe he was cold, but it nonetheless adds to the suspicions)

• He headed for the underground (again common place to go but given the underground seems to be a prime bombing target)

• When told to "stop, armed police" he began to jump the barriers and run (why the hell run from armed police in this state of climate especially considering how often tube trains arrive at the station)

• Even when given a bodyshot, (especially who may have been trained to be committed to dying and taking as many with you as you can), they could still strain every muscle to reach for a button. Hence why officers who believe persons are a terrorist threat are required to "kill the brain" with 5 shots to the head.

Also consider the implication of not shooting and allowing the victim to reach for the button, two trains had just pulled in, full of passengers.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but you never have it until it is too late. The circumstances may be unrelated to a suicide bomber on their own, but put together in this kind of climate, what would you have done if you saw this man run from you towards a station full of commuters.

 

[DM]

Delta

When told to "stop, armed police" he began to jump the barriers and run (why the hell run from armed police in this state of climate especially considering how often tube trains arrive at the station)

Precisely the reason I don't construe this as "barbaric" or "wrong doing".

Delta

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but you never have it until it is too late. The circumstances may be unrelated to a suicide bomber on their own, but put together in this kind of climate, what would you have done if you saw this man run from you towards a station full of commuters.

Inclined to agree again. The pad coat exacerbated things in my opinion, not that I'm stating he didn't have the right, but again, due to the circumstances and the state of climate, I infer that he gave the wrong implications.

 

[Art]

In the latest accounts 'jumped the ticket barrier' appears to have morphed into ran down the escalator as people are inclined to do when they see their train standing at the platform.

He caught a bus to Stockwell station where he was challenged by officers, who told him to stop.

Witnesses say the 27-year-old then bolted down an escalator.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13394495,00.html
Witnesses also say that the police did NOT identify themselves or challenge him before shooting him dead. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...1707480,00.html

p.s. It now turns out they shot him 8 times, 7 in the head and 1 in the shoulder. Also the 'long winter coat' has now become a padded jacket and illegal immigrant has become legal immigrant and terror suspect has become innocent man.

It will be interesting to see if the true story ever comes out. Running true to form the liklihood is the police will not provide details and will prevent future coverage in the press on the grounds it is sub judice due to 'possible' criminal proceedings whilst they spin their investigation out for several years.

 

[Smurf]

Witnesses also say that the police did NOT identify themselves or challenge him before shooting him dead.

p.s. It now turns out they shot him 8 times, 7 in the head and 1 in the shoulder.

No... Not a 'wrong doing' at all. You were totally right DM. Good Catch.