The virtual photon can turn into a virtual electron positron?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of virtual photons and their potential transformation into virtual electron-positron pairs during the electromagnetic interaction between electrons. Participants explore theoretical models and implications of these interactions, focusing on the nature of virtual particles in quantum electrodynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question when and how electrons repel each other through electromagnetic disturbances, specifically regarding the role of virtual photons.
  • There is a suggestion that virtual photons could transform into virtual electron-positron pairs during the repulsion of electrons, although this is framed within a theoretical context.
  • One participant notes that while this transformation is part of a theoretical model, it cannot be observed directly, as virtual photons are not observable entities.
  • It is mentioned that the creation and destruction of virtual electron-positron pairs from virtual photons contribute to the probability amplitude of electron repulsion, but this model has significant limitations.
  • Another participant highlights that the complexity of processes in Feynman diagrams affects their likelihood, stating that more complex interactions contribute less to the overall probability amplitude.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty and differing views on the implications of virtual particles and their interactions. There is no consensus on the interpretation of these theoretical models or their limitations.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the limitations of the theoretical models discussed, particularly regarding the observational aspects of virtual particles and the complexity of interactions in quantum electrodynamics.

Philipsmett
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for example, when does an electron repel another electron with an electromagnetic disturbance?
 
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Philipsmett said:
when does an electron repel another electron with an electromagnetic disturbance?

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you narrow your question to a specific experimental scenario or a specific theoretical model?
 
Philipsmett said:
for example, when does an electron repel another electron with an electromagnetic disturbance?
Same charges always repel.
How is this question related to the topic of this thread?
 
PeterDonis said:
I'm not sure what you mean. Can you narrow your question to a specific experimental scenario or a specific theoretical model?
when two electrons repel by virtual photon, can this photon transform into virtual electron positron pair?
 
Philipsmett said:
when two electrons repel by virtual photon, can this photon transform into virtual electron positron pair?

If you mean, can we observe this, no. We don't even observe virtual photons exchanged by electrons that are repelling each other; virtual photons are a property of a particular theoretical model. In that theoretical model, yes, some of the probability amplitude for electrons to repel each other is due to the creation (and destruction) of virtual electron-positron pairs from (and to) virtual photons. But this theoretical model has significant limitations and should not be taken too literally. We have an Insights article that discusses this:

https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/misconceptions-virtual-particles/
 
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PeterDonis said:
If you mean, can we observe this, no. We don't even observe virtual photons exchanged by electrons that are repelling each other; virtual photons are a property of a particular theoretical model. In that theoretical model, yes, some of the probability amplitude for electrons to repel each other is due to the creation (and destruction) of virtual electron-positron pairs from (and to) virtual photons. But this theoretical model has significant limitations and should not be taken too literally. We have an Insights article that discusses this:

https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/misconceptions-virtual-particles/
Want to say that there is a possibility
that a virtual photon on its way turns into a virtual electron positron pair?
But as far as I understand, the more complex the process, the less likely it is to origin?
 
Philipsmett said:
Want to say that there is a possibility
that a virtual photon on its way turns into a virtual electron positron pair?

This describes a particular Feynman diagram that contributes to the calculated probability amplitude, yes. But, as I've already noted and as the Insights article goes into in some detail, this viewpoint has significant limitations and should not be taken too literally.

Philipsmett said:
as far as I understand, the more complex the process, the less likely it is to origin?

The more vertexes there are in the Feynman diagram, the smaller its contribution to the calculated probability amplitude. (Note that this is true because the coupling constant for quantum electrodynamics is small; for an interaction like the strong nuclear force where the coupling constant is not small, the statement is not true, which makes it much, much harder to study such interactions using this method.)
 

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