The way matrices are written without boxes

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the representation of matrices, particularly the notation used to denote elements within a matrix and the implications for understanding matrix multiplication. Participants express varying levels of comfort with the notation and seek clarity on its use in formal mathematical contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants find the notation $$A = (a_{ij} )_{i, j =1}^{m,n}$$ confusing, particularly regarding whether $$a_{ij}$$ refers to the element in the i-th row and j-th column or vice versa.
  • Others argue that the compact algebraic notation is essential for formal proofs involving matrices, despite initial confusion.
  • A participant emphasizes that the definition of matrix multiplication is clear and should not rely on intuitive methods like taking rows and columns, suggesting that understanding the dot product is key.
  • Some participants assert that the notation is clear and unambiguous once the definitions are understood, specifically noting that the first index in $$a_{ij}$$ is the row index.
  • There are references to personal experiences during undergraduate studies, indicating that learning to adopt this notation may vary based on individual backgrounds.
  • One participant quotes biblical verses, which may suggest a philosophical or rhetorical approach to the discussion, but their relevance to the mathematical topic is unclear.
  • Another participant comments on the importance of focusing on the topic at hand, indicating that off-topic discussions may detract from the main issue.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of agreement and disagreement regarding the clarity and utility of the matrix notation. While some find it clear and essential, others continue to struggle with its interpretation and application, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the ambiguity in notation and its implications for understanding matrix multiplication, while others assert that clarity can be achieved through proper understanding. The discussion reflects varying levels of familiarity with mathematical notation and its formal use.

Hall
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TL;DR
i-j representation of matrix.
When a matrix is represented as a box it seems all very clear, but this representation
$$
A = (a_{ij} )_{i, j =1}^{m,n}$$
Isn't very representative to me. The i -j thing creates a lot of confusion, when we write ##a_{ij}## do we mean the element of i th row and jth column or the other way round?

It becomes very ambiguous when we define the matrix multiplication and write the i-j element of AB =C as
$$
c_{ij} = \sum_{k=1}^{p} a_{ik} b_{kj}$$

It's not the case that I cannot understand it rather the matter I find it difficult to make this representation as my second nature. Can anyone of you help me in adopting this representation?
 
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Hall said:
Can anyone of you help me in adopting this representation?
It's clearly the way to go if you want to do formal proofs involving ##n \times n## matrices, where ##n## is arbitrary. It's useful, of course, to use ##2 \times 2## and ##3 \times 3## examples to help, but ultimately the compact algebraic notation is indispensible.
 
PeroK said:
notation is indispensible.
Do you have something to share from your experience or your fellows experience when you were undergrads ?
 
Hall said:
Do you have something to share from your experience or your fellows experience when you were undergrads ?
Hall said:
we define the matrix multiplication and write the i-j element of AB =C as
$$
c_{ij} = \sum_{k=1}^{p} a_{ik} b_{kj}$$
This IS the definition of matrix multiplication. You can't go on forever talking about taking the first row and multiplying it by the first column etc.

When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.

Corinthians 13:11
 
For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

Corinthians 1:11
 
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Hall said:
When a matrix is represented as a box it seems all very clear, but this representation
$$
A = (a_{ij} )_{i, j =1}^{m,n}$$
Isn't very representative to me.
It cannot be clearer than that! No dots indicating and so on, no guessing of the dimensions, no guessing whether the entire matrix or only a matrix entry is meant, a clear distinction between matrix and coefficients.
 
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Hall said:
When a matrix is represented as a box it seems all very clear, but this representation $$A = (a_{ij} )_{i, j =1}^{m,n}$$

Isn't very representative to me. The i -j thing creates a lot of confusion, when we write ##a_{ij}## do we mean the element of i th row and jth column or the other way round?
The notation means the matrix of elements ##a_{i j}## as i ranges from 1 to m and j ranges from 1 to n. The first index in ##a_{i j}## is the row index, and the second is the column index.

Hall said:
It becomes very ambiguous when we define the matrix multiplication and write the i-j element of AB =C as ##c_{ij} = \sum_{k=1}^{p} a_{ik} b_{kj}##
It's not at all ambiguous once you realize that the i-j entry in matrix C is the dot product of row i in the left matrix (A) with column j in the right matrix (B). For the multiplication to be defined, or conformable, the rows of A and the columns of B must have the same number of elements, n in this case.
 
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fresh_42 said:
For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

Corinthians 1:11
Little children, let us not love.

John 3:18
 
Talk no more of off topic things quoth the raven nevermore.
 
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  • #10
Hall said:
It becomes very ambiguous when we define the matrix multiplication and write the i-j element of AB =C as
$$
c_{ij} = \sum_{k=1}^{p} a_{ik} b_{kj}$$

You know you sum over the elements of a row of A and a column of B, so that should tell you which index is which!
 

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