Research indicates a strong correlation between a nation's average IQ and its economic prosperity, with studies showing that higher national IQs are associated with greater GDP. The discussion raises questions about whether IQ influences wealth or vice versa, with some arguing that socioeconomic factors like education and health impact IQ test performance. Critics highlight potential cultural biases in IQ testing, while others assert that intelligence is largely hereditary and significantly predicts future socioeconomic status. The conversation also touches on the role of motivation in achieving success, suggesting that while IQ can provide an advantage, it is not the sole determinant of a person's accomplishments. Some participants argue that societal oppression, rather than intelligence, is a primary factor in a nation's struggles, emphasizing that human rights and liberty are essential for prosperity. The debate reflects differing views on the implications of IQ research for understanding global economic disparities and the complexities of defining success.
#31
jerryel
Originally posted by Vosh Here is the problem: We are not better off in the west because we have a larger economy...IQ tests aren't required for us to *find* ppl. like Ben Franklin in order to benefit from them...Whatever the average IQ of a group; they are not in trouble because they're too stupid, they're in trouble because they are oppressed. Oppress Americans to the level that Rwandans and others in Africa are oppressed and Americans would look like a load of savages, too!
So you don't think that high IQ and democracy go together along with the large economy? I don't think you can have one without the other. A population of high IQ people will demand democracy and produce martyrs to obtain it.
Rwanda has been ruled by a "tribe" which makes up only 14% of the population for centuries (except for short periods). Is it any wonder that that tribe has distinct physical and mental differences? Regardless, in the long run the people of superior intellect will always rule no matter where. That's why Stalin killed off the intellectuals to temporarily stave off nature's own devices.
Originally posted by jerryel A population of high IQ people will demand democracy and produce martyrs to obtain it.
It depends one what you mean by high IQ. Some high IQ's are conformist nazis (however unaware of it they are, and they usually are until history points them out). But if a way were found to guarantee that from now on all new borns would not have less than an IQ of 130 with that average being the convergance of all kinds of thinking, not just a freakish faculty for math while completely incompetent in other areas (verbal, interpersonal...); it's nice to imagine that the problem of the rank and file being so easily suckered by their more clever peers (the novel, "Animal Farm" describes this process very eloquently!) would be solved. However, right now there are plenty of folks with relatively high IQ's and no imagination at all thanks to their schooling and/or aptitudes and a slavish sense of dumb conformity.
Rwanda has been ruled by a "tribe" which makes up only 14% of the population for centuries (except for short periods). Is it any wonder that that tribe has distinct physical and mental differences?
Right. Give them everything the first Americans had, personal liberty and access to lending libraries (invented by Ben Franklin and a gang he was running around with in those days in 1731 -- read about it in his autobiography!) and the rest would take care of itself. But ppl. today don't know where they came from so when they try to fix places like Rwanda or the Middle East they try to apply todays values and todays values are NOT how America got started.
#33
Nachtwolf
7
0
However, right now there are plenty of folks with relatively high IQ's and no imagination at all thanks to their schooling and/or aptitudes and a slavish sense of dumb conformity.
No, there aren't. IQ correlates at 30% with Openness to Experience and with some measures of Field Independence at almost 50%. Openness to Experience and Field Dependence both predispose a person towards challenging accepted wisdom, towards individualism, and towards free thinking.
Right. Give them everything the first Americans had, personal liberty and access to lending libraries (invented by Ben Franklin and a gang he was running around with in those days in 1731 -- read about it in his autobiography!) and the rest would take care of itself. But ppl. today don't know where they came from so when they try to fix places like Rwanda or the Middle East they try to apply todays values and todays values are NOT how America got started.
THE AVERAGE IQ IN AFRICA IS 70.
Do you seriously imagine that a group of borderline retarded people can institute democracy and attain a state of civilization? Can you name a single stable, civilized nation with an average IQ above 80? I repeat:
THE AVERAGE IQ IN AFRICA IS 70.
--Mark
#34
Vosh
82
0
Originally posted by Nachtwolf No, there aren't. IQ correlates at 30% with Openness to Experience and with some measures of Field Independence at almost 50%. Openness to Experience and Field Dependence both predispose a person towards challenging accepted wisdom, towards individualism, and towards free thinking.
You should know that I don't speak your jargon, so I can't speak to it unless you translate. Also, this means that Bill Clinton was an average bear, after all. Wonder why folks thought he was so brilliant?
THE AVERAGE IQ IN AFRICA IS 70.
Why do you think that?
Do you seriously imagine that a group of borderline retarded people can institute democracy and attain a state of civilization?
Not when they are oppressed by those who are a little more clever. Those clever ones who know better are either out numbered or are not in charge of the army and the rank and file are too stupid to tell the difference. That must be why the electorate chose a college cheerleader over someone who has dedicated his life to protecting the consumer (Ralph Nader) for U.S. President. Early Americans had to be manipulated and cajoled by the "founding fathers" into fighting the war for independence. If America fell under thug rule, folks wouldn't resist. They'd be just as confused as the rank and file in the east. There would just be more geniuses involved in the west. There may be a higher number of geniuses in the west than the east, but this doesn't account for the west being a nicer place to live. The west being a nicer place to live is why smart ppl. leave places like the Middle East and come here (and produce the illusion that foreigners are better at math -- no, it's just that we are seeing all the smart foreigners). As I say, if you're talking about *everyone* having an above average IQ, then they might be less likely to be manipulated by the smart pigs (see, "Animal Farm") but we don't know since this situation has never existed on Earth...
#35
jerryel
Originally posted by Vosh
That must be why the electorate chose a college cheerleader over someone who has dedicated his life to protecting the consumer (Ralph Nader) for U.S. President. [/B]
Thanks, that helps me to refrain from debating with you. This isn't a politics forum and if you think an avowed socialist (a neo-com) would make a good president then I have nothing to discuss with you.
If you would like to discuss IQ and it's importance (or non-importance) to human society then leave out the political comments.
#36
Nachtwolf
7
0
You should know that I don't speak your jargon
I keep giving you the benefit of the doubt. It's not "my jargon;" it's the science of psychology. I'm not going to give you the benefit of the doubt any more and will simply spell things out for you neatly:
High IQ predisposes a person towards individualism and away from groupthink.
THE AVERAGE IQ IN AFRICA IS 70.
Why do you think that?
Because multiple studies found it to be true.
Not when they are oppressed by those who are a little more clever.
They aren't oppressed. But they are unintelligent.
If you would like to discuss IQ and it's importance (or non-importance) to human society then leave out the political comments.
Vosh doesn't understand those things, Jerry. He understands politics.
--Mark
#37
Nephtys
7
0
Intelliegence determining the prosperity of a nation? That's a rich thought. It seems to me that that idea is out to badmouth our international neighbors.
Besides, that can't be true for every scenario. What is the average IQ in the United States, ranged in the 90's? And the U.S.'s wealth is one of the greatest in the world.
#38
Nephtys
7
0
Wait. Does this guy mean the people in charge or the average of the entire populace?
#39
Vosh
82
0
Well, one person replied with a rhetorical (an assertion was made with zero supporting statements) political statement by way of telling me not to make political statement and another person suggested that the ppl. who live under thugocracies in Africa and the Middle East aren't oppressed. Some things one can say about the unintelligent come to mind: 1) They can't hear themselves. 2) Their feelings get hurt taking things personally and their egos get easily drawn into battles of will instead of constructive exchanges. 3) They see what they want to see (a life long consumer activist, someone who takes no contributions as a politician, trained in the law, self taught in chinese language, is the reason you can get into a minor auto accident and not get impaled on your steering column or torn to shreds by ordinary glass windshields, etc. etc. is probably just trying to turn America into the next Soviet Union but a self satisfied simian college cheerleader will save you and me from the baddies -- if only more ppl. would vote instead of just Homer Simpson and Fred Flintstone)
#40
Vosh
82
0
And don't say, "this guy". It's a phrase "dumb guys" use when they're trying to engage in mean spirited psychological warfare.
*
I can't believe someone on a physics forum thinks ppl. in third world countries aren't oppressed. This is going to interrupt me in mid thought for a few days...
#41
Nachtwolf
7
0
Intelliegence determining the prosperity of a nation? That's a rich thought. It seems to me that that idea is out to badmouth our international neighbors.
What purpose would that serve?
Lynn and Vanhanen's research investigates the question of why some nations are rich and others poor. Since high IQ individuals usually do better economically than other individuals in the same society, we might expect the same pattern to emerge internationally comparing nations to one another. And, research verifies this - the average IQ is correlated with per capita GDP at around 40%.
Besides, that can't be true for every scenario.
It isn't; that's why the correlation is 40% rather than 100%. The authors of the study point out a variety of other factors which seem to influence national wealth, such as natural resources, communism, and so forth.
What is the average IQ in the United States, ranged in the 90's? And the U.S.'s wealth is one of the greatest in the world.
America's IQ is 98, compared to a British mean of 100. This is, sadly, eight points above the average IQ in the world, which is 90. And of course the United States is a highly capitalistic society with a wealth of natural resources.
Wait. Does this guy mean the people in charge or the average of the entire populace?
The book gives average IQs for the entire populace. It is worth noting that a high-IQ elite can do wonders for a nation, however.
_______
if only more ppl. would vote instead of just Homer Simpson and Fred Flintstone
In a democracy, the majority will rule. The majority is roughly 100 IQ throughout 1st world nations, and 100 IQ individuals are easily swayed by appeals to emotion and connect more readily with people in the 100-120 IQ range than in the 140 IQ range.
I can't believe someone on a physics forum thinks ppl. in third world countries aren't oppressed. This is going to interrupt me in mid thought for a few days...
Who thinks people in third world countries aren't oppressed? Of course they are oppressed. You're the one who won't admit to one of the causes of third world problems - namely, a lack of intelligence. Or hasn't it ever occurred to you to wonder why they are oppressed?
--Mark
#42
Vosh
82
0
Originally posted by Nachtwolf What purpose would that serve?
Lynn and Vanhanen's research investigates the question of why some nations are rich and others poor. Since high IQ individuals usually do better economically than other individuals in the same society, we might expect the same pattern to emerge internationally comparing nations to one another. And, research verifies this - the average IQ is correlated with per capita GDP at around 40%.
Intriguing. Have you ever read anything about how one group (whether a nation or just a neighborhood) will suffer because the smarter ones will leave and go to live with another group where life is nice and as a consequence leave the old group even worse off?
America's IQ is 98, compared to a British mean of 100.
A theory I've had about that is that Britain is simply less oriented toward the lowest common denominator -- it's simply a smaller place (economically). What do you think?
This is, sadly, eight points above the average IQ in the world, which is 90. And of course the United States is a highly capitalistic society with a wealth of natural resources.
Yeah.
In a democracy, the majority will rule. The majority is roughly 100 IQ throughout 1st world nations, and 100 IQ individuals are easily swayed by appeals to emotion and connect more readily with people in the 100-120 IQ range than in the 140 IQ range.
Unfortunately, that rings very true!
Who thinks people in third world countries aren't oppressed? Of course they are oppressed. You're the one who won't admit to one of the causes of third world problems - namely, a lack of intelligence. Or hasn't it ever occurred to you to wonder why they are oppressed?
Ok. I thought you said, "no they aren't". No worries. It occurred to me to wonder once if those in authority (right now called "the Bush administration"; giving the impression that Shrub is calling the shots -- of whiskey, perhaps!) realize that America didn't get started by setting up schools and business ventures and basically doing what we try to do now; setting up present day America wholesale, as 'twere: installing schools, restaurants, businesses, banks and all this and they also realize that these backward places in the world will never just start from scratch armed with the same principles as those given us (which we are thankfully still living off though some work around the clock to replace them with laissez faire capitalism...) and so they conclude, behind closed doors so that ppl. won't hear and become hysterical, that these places have to be forced out of their grinding backwardness. As a consequence, we have the difficult, controversial violent drama of the war in Iraq... Someone called that notion reactionary; but maybe it's what some folks in the right offices are thinking and thinking it's right and for the best even if they could never come right out and try to explain it to the masses. The flaw here as far as I can see is that after forcing things they're still clumsily going in and installing present day America thinking that this is how a thing like America was born in the first place. Anyway; just trying to imagine what they must be thinking making the decisions they seem to be making... It could be that I've been up too long... What do you think?
#43
TENYEARS
472
0
The amount of money amassed has little to do with intelligence anywhere. Anyone who belives this is obviously a beliver and not a thinker since it is contrary to reality. One of you quoted something of the nature somewhere about a country of retarded people. Interesting. You have no clue of absolutes, and it is because you do not, that the unconscious battering ram of human motion will decimate the planet. I am a thinker, at times I am far beyond it. Human kind will pay by it's own hand. Mark my words. It's physics, even if you don't understand it quite yet. Merry christmas.
#44
TENYEARS
472
0
Vosh, have a big glass of milk have a cookie and go to bed. Your idea of other countries being backward because of what they do not have is off the wall. Don't blame yourself, it is a belief used for a thousand years in order to extract riches from other countries with some attempt of a morality overlay for the general public. Most of these countries were far better off without us. China had zero percent overwieght children, with the advent of western fast food in less than 10 years they are over 10% and growing fast. Just a pebble in a pile of pebbles. When your in school in and learning structured learning, there is sometimes not a lot of time to break down things and think of the conective nature of things.
#45
Nachtwolf
7
0
Have you ever read anything about how one group (whether a nation or just a neighborhood) will suffer because the smarter ones will leave and go to live with another group where life is nice and as a consequence leave the old group even worse off?
As a matter of fact, that's the common explanation for Ireland's IQ, which is under 95.
A theory I've had about that is that Britain is simply less oriented toward the lowest common denominator -- it's simply a smaller place (economically). What do you think?
I think that 2 IQ points isn't enough to write home about. Your idea may be true; I don't know much about England. I do know, however, that the 2 point disparity between America and England could just be a fluke.
"the Bush administration"... capitalism... war in Iraq... What do you think?
I think I am a dour individual who has learned that every possible problem or complaint which could be raised about society always ends with "because everyone is so stupid." There are other causes for the Iraq war which we could name, none of which truly justify it to my thinking, but in the end they probably come down to human stupidity as well.
The amount of money amassed has little to do with intelligence anywhere. Anyone who belives this is obviously a beliver and not a thinker since it is contrary to reality.
Yes, TenYears, tell us all how the findings of science are contrary to reality!
You have no clue of absolutes, and it is because you do not, that the unconscious battering ram of human motion will decimate the planet.
Hahaha tell us all how to think in black and white, TenYears!
I am a thinker, at times I am far beyond it.
Oh, indeed!
Human kind will pay by it's own hand. Mark my words. It's physics, even if you don't understand it quite yet.
Eerything is physics. And no, this doesn't support your statements.
Vosh, have a big glass of milk have a cookie and go to bed. Your idea
Hahaha! This isn't Vosh's idea; it isn't even Jerry's or mine. It's Lynn's and Vanhanen's idea, which they supported with - get this - evidence. But why am I telling you this? You're a "thinker."
Thank you for bringing joy to my existence! Merry Christmas to you too!
--Mark
#46
jerryel
Originally posted by Nachtwolf Hahaha! This isn't Vosh's idea; it isn't even Jerry's or mine. It's Lynn's and Vanhanen's idea, which they supported with - get this - evidence. But why am I telling you this? You're a "thinker."
--Mark
Why do you bother? There are always clowns on sauce or sumtin' to disrupt good discussions.
It seems the term "IQ" has acquired the PC definition of a "dirty word" and racist at that. Any hint of IQ relating to any racial (they call it "culture" now) group now is attacked as being un-scientific and subjective and being promulgated by neo-nazis.
You can post peer reviewed studies until your fingers bleed and you will not change these peoples opinion. I quit trying.
Your idea of other countries being backward because of what they do not have is off the wall.
Never meant to give that impression. The Middle East, for example, sufferes from a stifling sense of backwardness and grinding poverty. Desperate people are easy to take advantage of. Rulers tend (heh) to want to perpetuate themselves and an unfortunate trap in the Middle East is that if you don't give (or promise) immediate results, which often translates to userping the current rulers, then you find yourself quickly out of a job. So what it takes to govern there is to behave like a thug. It's a job that attracts thugs and it's a vicious cycle. They don't like America because the only time the west comes around is to make shady deal with shady rulers. You won't hear that on the commercial news...
China had zero percent overwieght children, with the advent of western fast food in less than 10 years they are over 10% and growing fast.
Yeah, it's very easy to get and consume too much sugar. You're body craves it all the time so that in the wild you will get at least the minimum amount; but in civilization you can get all the sugar you want and humans naturally want it all the time. I'll bet sugar merchants watch their intake of sugar more than anyone else!
When your in school in and learning structured learning,
School isn't about learning. Learning is as natural as breathing; it can't be stopped, only perverted. School is a jobs creation project. It wasn't a thing to provide growth and learning that has gone wrong and needs reform. It was a bad idea from the get go. Simply; there is no reason for coerced instruction of any kind. Ponder that and then you'll begin to get an idea of why future generations will wonder how we could live like this the same way we look at the Middle Ages and think those ppl. had to be savages to live like that!
"As intelligence goes up, happiness often goes down." --Lisa Simpson
Did anyone already wonder about the validity of the IQ tests and whether people in some countries are 'conditioned' to do well on those tests?
So yeah, maybe developed countries perform more of those tests, and the people will thus become better at it and get higher scores, just by knowing the drill.
#50
Vosh
82
0
Originally posted by Monique Did anyone already wonder about the validity of the IQ tests and whether people in some countries are 'conditioned' to do well on those tests?
So yeah, maybe developed countries perform more of those tests, and the people will thus become better at it and get higher scores, just by knowing the drill.
I don't know anything about Lynn and Vanhanen (sp?) or their methods. I tend to agree that the only thing tests measure is your ability to take a test. Performance on a test can be significantly effected by a persons expectation of how they will score compared to someone else. In experiments, a black male of known superior IQ and a male Asian of known lesser IQ are put in a room where they take a test. Because the black male assumes that the Asian is terrific at Math etc. his performance on the test is very poor compared to the Asian subject who in turn scores very high because he expects himself to be smarter than his peer. I saw this on PBS once. Where else!? I forget what they named the phenomenon; but it's very interesting.
One thing I do believe is that smart ppl. tend to leave bad places to go and live in good places and that this causes a brain drain. I can believe it happens to entire countries and regions just as it happens in neighborhoods.
I once heard a black activist argue that while there may be something to research into whether blacks, on average, are less intelligent, society isn't ready to deal with it in a way that would be anything other than destructive. So books like the one in question tend to bolster, for example, white supremecists, even if that wasn't the intention.
Personally, I don't know why they bothered to write such a book. Psychologists, ppl. who run ad campaigns, captains of industry, politicians already understand that "most people are stupid". So who is the book for? The stupid ppl. won't get it, so it's not for them. Those who profit from the lowest common denominator already know, so it's not for them. I don't know who that leaves except the KKK.
#51
Nachtwolf
7
0
Did anyone already wonder about the validity of the IQ tests and whether people in some countries are 'conditioned' to do well on those tests?
Actually that's what just about everyone already wondered. The short answer is yes, the IQ tests are valid. The long answer is that Lynn and Vanhanen used Raven's Progrssive Matrices to test their hypothesis, which even with coaching for the testees give low scores for people living in third world nations. Part of administering an IQ test involves making sure the testee knows the drill.
It's possible (indeed almost certain) that environmental influces are partly responsible for low scores obtained in those countries, but it seems that the scores accurately reflect intelligence and thus it is intelligence itself which is being slightly depressed. A prime example of this is the fact that African blacks consistently score ~15 IQ points lower than American blacks. Nutrition and various other factors are probably partly responsible for the ~15 point gap (although it's also worth noting that American blacks are approximately 20% caucasian).
Vanhanen (sp?)
Haha! Yeah I can never get that name right. I think it's Vanhanen, but my connection is really bad right now so I can't conveniently check.
smart ppl. tend to leave bad places to go and live in good places and that this causes a brain drain
Yep; this is the standard GxE phenomenon. It turns out that smart people seek out cognitively stimulating environments which probably further their intellectual development.
I once heard a black activist argue that while there may be something to research into whether blacks, on average, are less intelligent, society isn't ready to deal with it in a way that would be anything other than destructive. So books like the one in question tend to bolster, for example, white supremecists, even if that wasn't the intention.
That black activist was a smart guy. The trouble is exactly that society isn't read for it - since the facts have been known for around 100 years (and pretty much became settled science 50 years ago) it's only the fact that this is unpopular that makes it generally disbelieved.
I don't know who that leaves except the KKK.
It leaves Eugenists. Lynn is a big time eugenist who wrote two books titled Eugenics and Dysgenics, and the book we're discussing here, IQ and the wealth of Nations does a great deal to support his position.
So, some research appears to show there is a correlation between 'the wealth of nations' and IQ (or similar). Other research shows that IQ (or similar) is primarily (or predominently) hereditary. Conclusion: since you can't change folks' IQ, most people living in Africa had just better get used to being poor?
Consider: some research has shown there is a correlation between economic growth and degree of openness to free international trade ... and universal primary education ... and sanitation and universal access to clean drinking water ... and stable government ... and corruption (negative correlation) ... and sound fiscal policies ... and good regulatory regimes ... and (it's a long list). These are all things which we can do something about, whether we live in the US, the UK, China, Brazil, Burma/Myanmar, or Benin. Further, there's plenty of good data to show that if you do something about reducing trade barriers, providing universal primary education, clamping down on corruption, (etc), the wealth of your nation does indeed increase.
Maybe this eugenics idea is a waste of time and energy, if what you want to do is increase the wealth of your nation?
#53
Nachtwolf
7
0
So, some research appears to show there is a correlation between 'the wealth of nations' and IQ (or similar). Other research shows that IQ (or similar) is primarily (or predominently) hereditary. Conclusion: since you can't change folks' IQ, most people living in Africa had just better get used to being poor?
Why put words into my posts which aren't there? Don't you find these preconceptions you have about my views to be encumbering?
1) The research doesn't appear to show a correlation. It does show a 40% correlation. Further research is in order to test whether this is accurate, and better understand where it comes from and how it "works."
2) The fact that IQ is heritable within a group does not by itself show that the IQ difference between two groups must be heritable to the same degree. Even pretending for the moment that the American B/W IQ gap were 100% genetic (something no one believes) some quick calculations would lead us to expect that the average IQ of native, fully black Africans should be 80, not 70. Thus, at bare minimum the IQ of these third-worlders is environmentally depressed by around 10 points.
3) Whether the low average IQ of any given group is caused by genetic or environmental factors, it is not irremediable. Since within-group heritabilities are high, eugenic efforts can fairly easily boost their intelligence in the long term. It is my wish to bring about such positive eugenic change throughout the globe.
Consider: some research has shown there is a correlation between economic growth and degree of openness to free international trade ... and universal primary education ... and sanitation and universal access to clean drinking water ... and stable government ... and corruption (negative correlation) ... and sound fiscal policies ... and good regulatory regimes ... and (it's a long list).
Lynn's research actually further demonstrates most of this. The trouble is that we can't say that these things themselves are independent of IQ - and, in fact, other findings suggest to contrary. More intelligent people (compared to their peers in the same society) are more educable and more productive workers. They are less crime prone, healther, and longer-lived. They are more likely to take an active interest in government and politics, and tend away from rigid, authoritarian views.
Maybe this eugenics idea is a waste of time and energy, if what you want to do is increase the wealth of your nation?
Nereid: "Conclusion: since you can't change folks' IQ, most people living in Africa had just better get used to being poor?" {note the question mark} Nachtwolf: "Why put words into my posts which aren't there? Don't you find these preconceptions you have about my views to be encumbering?" Nereid: (quoting Nachtwolf) Hahahaha!
1) The research doesn't appear to show a correlation. It does show a 40% correlation. Further research is in order to test whether this is accurate, and better understand where it comes from and how it "works."
Clearly I have to spend some more time analysing Lynn's work. However, as I noted in another thread, "Lynn seems to have merely collected studies done between 1952 and 2000, on subjects whose ages ranged from 3 to 'Adults', with sample sizes ranging from 88 to over 43,000, by a number of different authors." He did NOT do the work himself. (BTW, the other posters on that thread - including Nachtwolf - haven't yet given answers to very basic questions about the data).
Let's talk about the data which shows "IQ difference between groups" (i.e. Lynn)
hitssquad wrote: For other nations used in the final regression analysis, [Lynn's] national IQs were estimated by such methods as taking an average of neighboring nations, and using IQ data from racially similar populations (correcting for racial proportion in the latter case).
Again, I need to study the work done by Lynn. For now I merely note that repeated questions - to Nachtwolf and others - have yet to yield even a list of 'sub-Saharan' races (or east Asian ones for that matter).
#55
hitssquad
926
0
Lynn's methods
Originally posted by Nereid "Lynn seems to have merely collected studies done between 1952 and 2000, on subjects whose ages ranged from 3 to 'Adults', with sample sizes ranging from 88 to over 43,000, by a number of different authors." He did NOT do the work himself.
If the authors had merely collected studies, in the final report there would have been no corrections for known bias, no regression analyses, no comparisons with other IQ-related factors, or the results of any of the other work the authors did.
In the digest version of his analysis posted online at his website in the form of the article Intelligence and the Wealth and Poverty of Nations, nine of the IQ-collection-article citations are of papers published by Lynn himself:
http://www.rlynn.co.uk/pages/article_intelligence/7-a1.htm
Code:
Nation ages test N mean author date
Ethiopia 15-16 SPM 250 67 Lynn, 1994
Hong Kong 3-13 SPM 13,822 103 Lynn et al., 1988
Hong Kong 6-15 SPM 4,500 110 Lynn et al., 1988
Hong Kong 6 CPM 4,858 109 Chan & Lynn, 1989
Israel 9-15 SPM 250 90 Lynn, 1994
Japan 9 SPM 444 110 Shigehisa & Lynn, 1991
Korea, South 9 SPM 107 106 Lynn & Song, 1994
Singapore 13 SPM 147 103 Lynn, 1977
Taiwan 9-12 SPM 2,496 105 Lynn, 1997
SPM and CPM stand for the Raven tests "Standard Progressive Matrices" and "Coloured Progressive Matrices". As you can see, the only test he used was Raven's Matrices, a family of non-verbal tests.
Here are the references:
http://www.rlynn.co.uk/pages/article_intelligence/9.htm
Chan, J. and Lynn, R. (1989) The intelligence of six year olds in Hong Kong. Journal of Biosocial Science, 21, 461-464.
Lynn, R. (1977) The intelligence of the Chinese and Malays in Singapore. Mankind Quarterly, 18, 125-128.
Lynn, R. (1980) The social ecology of intelligence in France. British Journal of Social and Clinical Psychology, 19, 325-331.
Lynn, R. (1981) The social ecology of intelligence in the British Isles, France and Spain. In M.P.Friedman, J.P.Das and N. O'Connor (eds) Intelligence and Learning. New York: Plenum.
Lynn, R. (1991) Race differences in intelligence: a global perspective. Mankind Quarterly, 31, 255-294.
Lynn, R. (1994) The intelligence of Ethiopian immigrant and Israeli adolescents. International Journal of Psychology, 29, 55-56.
Lynn, R. (1997) Intelligence in Taiwan. Personality and Individual Differences, 22, 585-586.
Lynn, R., Pagliari, C. and Chan, J. (1988) Intelligence in Hong Kong measured for Spearman's g and the visuospatial and verbal primaries. Intelligence, 12, 423-433.
Lynn, R. and Song, M.J. (1994) General intelligence, visuospatial and verbal abilities of Korean children. Personality and Individual Differences, 16, 363-364.
Shigehisa, T. and Lynn, R. (1991) Reaction times and intelligence in Japanese children. International Journal of Psychology, 26, 195-202.
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Additionally, in the book IQ and the Wealth of Nations, Lynn and Vanhanen cite several other of Lynn's primary-research nation-IQ-testing papers:
Lynn, R. 1997b. Intelligence in Taiwan. Personality and Individual Differences, 22: 585-586.
Lynn, R., and J. Dziobon. 1980. On the intelligence of the Japanese and other Mongoloid peoples. Personality and Individual Differences, 1: 95-96.
Lynn, R., and S. Hampson. 1986a. The structure of Japanese abilities: An analysis in terms of the hierarchical model of intelligence. Current Psychological Research and Reviews, 4: 309-322.
Lynn, R., and S. Hampson. 1986b. Intellectual abilities of Japanese Children: An assessment of 2-8 year olds derived from the McCarthy Scales of Children's Abilities. Intelligence, 10: 41-58.
Lynn, R., and S. Hampson. 1987. Further evidence on the cognitive abilities of the Japanese: Data from the WPPSI. International Journal of Behavioral Development, 10: 23-36.
Lynn, R., S. Hampson, and M. Lee. 1988. The intelligence of Chinese children in Hong Kong. School Psychology International, 9: 29-32.
Lynn, R., and M. Holmshaw. 1990. Black-white differences in reaction times and intelligence. Social Behavior and Personality, 18: 299-308.
Lynn, R., E. Paspalanova, D. Stetinsky, and B. Tzenova. 1998. Intelligence in Bulgaria. Psychological Reports, 82: 912-914.[/color]
-Chris
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#56
Nachtwolf
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(BTW, the other posters on that thread - including Nachtwolf - haven't yet given answers to very basic questions about the data).
I think Hitsquad is smarter than I am. I know he has a better information database from his college. Most importantly, he's far more patient. And I just spotted a mistake (I accidentally typed that IQ and per capita GDP correlate near 40%, when it's actually around 75%) so I'm letting him take this one. He's not saying anything I wouldn't have said.
For now I merely note that repeated questions - to Nachtwolf and others - have yet to yield even a list of 'sub-Saharan' races (or east Asian ones for that matter).
Well, Hitsquad's already asked you (exactly I would have asked) what races are you referring to?
--Mark
#57
selfAdjoint
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
6,843
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If the authors had merely collected studies, in the final report there would have been no corrections for known bias, no regression analyses, no comparisons with other IQ-related factors, or the results of any of the other work the authors did.
Of course there could. It's common, if bad statistics, to do regressions on miscellaneous data sources collected by others. And your evidence of Lynn's own papers shows that he only studied oriental nations plus Israel. Not Africa. And it's the attributed IQ of ~70 for the subsaharan African nations that's the big news, and that carries a lot of the "correlation".
Apollo (emphasis added): "Average racial intelligences range from East Asians at about 106 ...[/color]"
Nacthwolf (emphasis added): "'East Asian' is a technical term referring to a specific group of Asians (also called "Pacific Rim Asians"). China does indeed have a mix of non "East Asian" ethnicities, and this may account for the fact that the average IQ in China is 100, while the average IQ in Japan (a far more homogeneous nation) is 105.[/color]"
hitssquad (emphasis added): "For other nations used in the final regression analysis, [Lynn's] national IQs were estimated by such methods as taking an average of neighboring nations, and using IQ data from racially similar populations (correcting for racial proportion in the latter case).[/color]"
Nereid (emphasis added): "For now I merely note that repeated questions - to Nachtwolf and others - have yet to yield even a list of 'sub-Saharan' races (or east Asian ones for that matter)."
Nacthwolf (emphasis added): "Well, Hitsquad's already asked you (exactly I would have asked) what races are you referring to?[/color]"
Nereid, in answer to Nachtwolf's question: the ones you and hitssquad refer to in your own posts!
Hitssquad also copied pages and pages of material about race and races, but has yet to give a list of these; Apollo made some remarks about IQ (or similar) varying markedly by race, but every time I've asked for something as simple as a list, I get no response.
Note to Monique: at what point does the proposers' continued inability to answer basic questions about their proprosal constitute grounds for moving this thread to S&D?
#59
Nachtwolf
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OK I can see this isn't going to go away on its own. Unfortunately my connection is too slow for me to locate Chris' quotation of Jensen's The g factor so I'll just answer you directly.
Racially speaking, Sub Saharan Africans are simply termed "Africans."
Race doesn't mean what lots of people think it means. Races aren't platonic categories, but instead they are large, mostly endogamous breeding populations, like giant families. How you want to split up humans by race is a matter largely of opinion. (The same goes for other creatures; dogs, wolves, and coyotes are called different "species" yet they can all interbreed!)
Sub Saharan Africa has a number of African populations. You'll hear names like Bantu and Bushman or West African and East African, but largely it's a bunch of fuzzy boundaries. Genes flow from east to west, north to south, and the entire country has a blending of ethnic characteristics. The same thing goes for populations in Eastern Europe; I recently saw a family of Russians with blond hair and epicanthic eyefolds (Asian eyes). And even Western Europe, which is generally considered "White" or "European" has racial differences - Northern Europeans tend towards Introversion and Field Independence while Southern Europeans tend towards Extroversion and Field Dependence. This difference seems to be racial, but Europeans are all classified as "European." (I personally think Northern and Southern Euros are different enough to be classified as such, but this is rarely ever done in the literature.)
When one group differs significantly from others on a given trait or traits (IQ for these discussions) then it is given a specific name; this is why East Asians and South Asians have different names. East Asians have 20 extra IQ points and a pronounced visuospatial/verbal disparity absent from South Asian IQ scores. To my understanding - and I don't have Lynn's book in front of me - the various African tribes differ radically on IQ but not for any racially identifiable reason. This is in stark contrast to the 15 point black/white IQ gap, which is so stable as to have been dubbed a "fundamental sociological constant." (See this page) This is probably possible only because the two groups are so distinct that they have maintained much of their integrity - they haven't blended yet.
--Mark
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#60
hitssquad
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Genetic cluster linkage trees
Originally posted by Nachtwolf Sub Saharan Africa has a number of African populations. You'll hear names like Bantu and Bushman or West African and East African, but largely it's a bunch of fuzzy boundaries. Genes flow from east to west, north to south, and the entire country has a blending of ethnic characteristics.