Thermodynamics - Entropy&Heat dispersion

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of entropy in a system of gases at different temperatures, specifically focusing on the mathematical treatment of the integral involved in the entropy calculation when approaching absolute zero. Participants explore the implications of heat capacity and the behavior of materials at low temperatures.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a scenario involving two moles of helium at different temperatures and attempts to calculate the final temperature and entropy of the mixture using specific heat capacity.
  • Another participant suggests solving the integral as an improper integral, indicating a lack of recent calculus experience.
  • A participant emphasizes that the heat capacity near absolute zero is not constant and references the Debye theory, proposing that the heat capacity is proportional to the third power of temperature.
  • Further discussion includes breaking the integration range into smaller sections to avoid the issue of logarithm of zero, with a focus on empirical laws governing heat capacity near absolute zero.
  • One participant provides detailed empirical data for oxygen's heat capacity across various temperature ranges, highlighting the complexity of entropy calculations and suggesting that the calculation for helium might be simpler.
  • There is a suggestion that the participant might only need to consider the change in entropy from the boiling point to higher temperatures, potentially avoiding the lower temperature range altogether.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on how to handle the integral involving absolute zero, with some proposing specific mathematical approaches while others suggest empirical considerations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best method to calculate the entropy in this context.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on specific heat capacity definitions and the potential for phase transitions affecting the calculations. The discussion also highlights the complexity of entropy calculations across different temperature ranges.

AbedeuS
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Hey, just a small mathematical enquiry about why temperature tends to average out in, say a box of gases. Let's just use the standard "Partitioned vessel" view of it, with One side having 1 mole of Helium at..say 398k and the other side with 1 mole of helium at 298K. The heat capacity is (rounded up) 21 J/Mol K and I'm assuming it's the same over the temperature range.

Now to calculate the final temperature when both gases are mixed I'm just going to use q=nC_{v}\deltaT to find the total thermal energy then calculate for T:

q_{298K} = 1*21*298 = 6258J
q_{398K} = 1*21*398 = 8358J

So:
T= \frac{q_{298K}+q_{398K}}{2*21} = 348K

Now with the final temperature, and discounting any residual T = 0 crystal entropy the entropy of that mixture is calculated by:

\int^{398}_{0} \frac{C_{v}}{T} dT = C_{p}ln(\frac{398}{0})
Stuck here, ln(0) is not possible I did have a grand plan to try and prove it to myself but how do you deal with this part in the integral?
 
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solve as an improper integral?

maybe, I haven't taken calc II in about 3 years.
 
This isn't a homework or coursework question by the way, it's just me enquiring (Directed at whomever moved it)
 
AbedeuS said:
Now with the final temperature, and discounting any residual T = 0 crystal entropy the entropy of that mixture is calculated by:

\int^{398}_{0} \frac{C_{v}}{T} dT = C_{p}ln(\frac{398}{0})
Stuck here, ln(0) is not possible I did have a grand plan to try and prove it to myself but how do you deal with this part in the integral?
You take into account that the heat capacity at temperatures near absolute zero is not a constant. In the Debye theory of solids, for example, it is
proportional to the third power of the temperature, so C/T goes as the
square of T. Then you can do the integral.
 
So its:
C_p ln(398) - 0^2?
 
No, I don't think so. My suggestion was just to break the range of the integration into several sections: 0 to T1, T2, ..., 398. and I only addressed my remarks to the range near zero (the part of your post in bold print). Many (solid) materials follow an empirical law of the type

C= aT^3 + \gamma T

over a small range in the neighbourhood of absolute zero of temperature. (i.e. the range 0 to T1. In this range, you can do the integral, thus avoiding the problem of log(0).
The values of the constants in the equation above as well as the temperature T1 will depend upon the material you are considering. For most materials, you will also have to divide the range from T1 to 398 into several smaller ranges as well because 1) the above equation loses its validity and 2) there may be phase transitions which will also contribute (i.e. the heat capacity is not a continuous function over the whole temperature range). For example, for oxygen, the ranges are

0 to 14 K contributing 0.54 cal/deg
14 to 23.66 K contributing 1.5
phase change contributing 0.948
23.66 to 43.76 contributing 4.661
phase change contributing 4.058
43.76 to 54.39 contributing 2.397
fusion contributing 1.954
54.39 to 90.13 (liquid phase) contributing 6.462
Vaporization contributing 18.07
---------------------------------------------
Total: Entropy of gas (T=90.13) is 40.59

For higher temperatures, you can use cp=7R/2, up to about T=298 K; at
temperatures above this, you need another empirical equation.

As you see, the calculation of entropy is not exactly trivial. For helium, it might be
less complicated but I don't really know. A final remark: I have only addressed myself to the question you asked about the integral in neighbourhood of T=0, not to the rest of your post. Maybe you don't need to consider the absolute entropy but only the
change in entropy from the boiling point to the higher temperature. In that case, you could simply reformulate the problem to avoid the lower temperature range(s)!
Would that work in your case?
 

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