Tired of having your Ideals Challenged?

[Tenshou]

I don't know, I seem to get in trouble very often and I do not know why. All I do is challenge authority. Is it wrong to challenge them? Why do other people who I am associated with get punished also, why do my so called friends tell me not to challenge this "power to be"? I am curious about why authority has so much of this status? Is this like some type of Luciferian disorder to dissent against authoritative and controlling beings? Should I just shut up and listen because "women/children should not be seen, nor heard." Which seems like we(as humans beings) should follow like the heard, and be heard animals. How do you feel about Authority? Does your heart pound and feel like it is about to come out of your throat and flop on to the floor? Share those thoughts. |･ω･｀) *peak-a-boo!*

 

[Evo]

I don't know, I seem to get in trouble very often and I do not know why. All I do is challenge authority. Is it wrong to challenge them? Why do other people who I am associated with get punished also, why do my so called friends tell me not to challenge this "power to be"? I am curious about why authority has so much of this status? Is this like some type of Luciferian disorder to dissent against authoritative and controlling beings? Should I just shut up and listen because "women/children should not be seen, nor heard." Which seems like we(as humans beings) should follow like the heard, and be heard animals. How do you feel about Authority? Does your heart pound and feel like it is about to come out of your throat and flop on to the floor? Share those thoughts. |･ω･｀) *peak-a-boo!*

Before you challenge authority, you should make sure they can't point out that you are a fool. If you don't have proof you are right, you're just another person to be ignored (the nicest way I could put it).

The old quote "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt". Think about it before you decide to speak.

If you have researched thoroughly, have checked your facts repeatedly and think you have found some thing no one else has managed to find, go back and find where you made an error.

If you are so sure you've made no error, then see if anyone that is an authority on the subject is willing to review your work, and be ready for them to point out the error you missed.

And maybe you are that one in a billion that didn't make an error. You need to have made friends along the way with the people that have specialized in this field that can help you make your work known.

This is a lesson in any job, at any level, if you truly think you have something new to offer, the way to get it accepted is by asking, not challenging.

 

[micromass]

Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to

For them that must obey authority
That they do not respect in any degree
Who despise their jobs, their destinies
Speak jealously of them that are free
Cultivate their flowers to be
Nothing more than something they invest in

 

[phion]

Forrest Gump: Lieutenant Dan, what are you doing here?
Lieutenant Daniel Taylor: I'm here to try out my sea legs.
Forrest Gump: But you ain't got no legs, Lieutenant Dan.
Lieutenant Daniel Taylor: [mildly irritated, but understanding] Yes... yes, I know that. You wrote me a letter, you idiot!

 

[nazarbaz]

I don't know, I seem to get in trouble very often and I do not know why. All I do is challenge authority. Is it wrong to challenge them? Why do other people who I am associated with get punished also, why do my so called friends tell me not to challenge this "power to be"? I am curious about why authority has so much of this status? Is this like some type of Luciferian disorder to dissent against authoritative and controlling beings? Should I just shut up and listen because "women/children should not be seen, nor heard." Which seems like we(as humans beings) should follow like the heard, and be heard animals. How do you feel about Authority? Does your heart pound and feel like it is about to come out of your throat and flop on to the floor? Share those thoughts. |･ω･｀) *peak-a-boo!*

Look buddy : there's only two intelligent ways to deal with "authority" and "power" : exert it as wisely as you could or get away from it as far as you can (true geniuses can do both at the same time). Those who want to "challenge", to "obey" or to share power are generally those you have to avoid in life : they embody what is most silly in human beings : illusions, delusions, verbiage, moralism, bad ambition and/or sheeplike behavior .
Very few people are really free in the world we live in. Even fewer people have the ability to really free others : it's neither in confrontation nor in obedience to power that you'll acquire more purpose, sharpness and intelligence... But I won't make the mistake to pontificate on these issues for you : do the job and free yourself first from yourself and then, only then, look to the world around.

 

[jim hardy]

Ever heard the old sayings

" It was amazing how much wiser my Dad got getween the time i was fifteen and thirty-five."

"I am no longer young enough to know everything."

Is it wrong to challenge them?

Watch some nature shows and examine yourself. If your challenging authority is just for your own 'feel good, to be respected', then it's just male antler-clashing and that belongs in the animal world.

 

[Kholdstare]

I don't know, I seem to get in trouble very often and I do not know why. All I do is challenge authority. Is it wrong to challenge them? Why do other people who I am associated with get punished also, why do my so called friends tell me not to challenge this "power to be"? I am curious about why authority has so much of this status? Is this like some type of Luciferian disorder to dissent against authoritative and controlling beings? Should I just shut up and listen because "women/children should not be seen, nor heard." Which seems like we(as humans beings) should follow like the heard, and be heard animals. How do you feel about Authority? Does your heart pound and feel like it is about to come out of your throat and flop on to the floor? Share those thoughts. |･ω･｀) *peak-a-boo!*

The question is, who is this authority?

 

[lisab]

Very few people are really free in the world we live in.

Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose

--Kris Kristofferson

OP: alright, so you question authority. Most people go through a phase like that, it's part of becoming an analytical thinker. Then as you mature a bit you realize you must listen when authority answers your question.

 

[nazarbaz]

--Kris Kristofferson

OP: alright, so you question authority. Most people go through a phase like that, it's part of becoming an analytical thinker. Then as you mature a bit you realize you must listen when authority answers your question.

It's actually what I've said... Once you become an "analytical thinker", you realize that it is all phrases and words, "authority" and "rebellion" alike...
You don't have to buy them anymore, just look at them with irony and detachement... Listen, yes, but don't believe...

 

[Tenshou]

Before you challenge authority, you should make sure they can't point out that you are a fool. If you don't have proof you are right, you're just another person to be ignored (the nicest way I could put it).

Well you could be right. but some people just resort to dirty, under-handed tactics, for example bashing on a persons confidence, or attempts at invading a person's personal boundaries. It isn't a real intelligent way of going about things, but still I find it hard to ignore people even if all the facts aren't completely straight.

The old quote "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt". Think about it before you decide to speak.

This is a lesson in any job, at any level, if you truly think you have something new to offer, the way to get it accepted is by asking, not challenging.

There is a quote which reminds me of your quote ironically enough "Half a fool, yet Half a Sage" I guess what I am trying to say is that anything even if the idea isn't complete there still exist a certain degree of consistency, and vice versa. Although, I do agree with you on the fact that if you want to change the establishment you got to know how to receive!(as in asking and not challenging).

Ever heard the old sayings

" It was amazing how much wiser my Dad got getween the time i was fifteen and thirty-five."

"I am no longer young enough to know everything."


Watch some nature shows and examine yourself. If your challenging authority is just for your own 'feel good, to be respected', then it's just male antler-clashing and that belongs in the animal world.

No, I have never heard of this saying until now. I understand what you mean, I think I do any way. I guess it isn't really challenging them, more like an attempt to correct a mistake they have made, yet I do not have enough status to do such a thing. Evo said something true

Before you challenge authority, you should make sure they can't point out that you are a fool. If you don't have proof you are right, you're just another person to be ignored (the nicest way I could put it).

. I still don't think I can comprehend how the ego belongs in the animal world?

The question is, who is this authority?

authority is any of the established belief systems, it is the system in which you are called attention to, for being full of delusions. I don't think there could be any more than that.

--Kris Kristofferson

OP: alright, so you question authority. Most people go through a phase like that, it's part of becoming an analytical thinker. Then as you mature a bit you realize you must listen when authority answers your question.

That is the problem people don't like to answer questions they don't know who to answer so they come up with an excuse.
"I said so."
I am fond of questioning and being on the pursuit of knowledge, always adventuring, searching for new ways how to do things. I would just take an,
"I do not know..."
and then maybe some words of encouragement then something that is detrimental to the mental health, you know?

It's actually what I've said... Once you become an "analytical thinker", you realize that it is all phrases and words, "authority" and "rebellion" alike...
You don't have to buy them anymore, just look at them with irony and detachement... Listen, yes, but don't believe...

I find it hard to believe a person who isn't talking to me. When a person commands you to do something yes it is communication, but it is not talking. If you are detached how can you be in the moment, spontaneous? Being detached during the moment you are in "rebellion" means you aren't listening, or trying to understand and comprehend what the "authority" has to say. You are just doing and not actively engaged in trying to understand what they have to say, you know?

 

[jim hardy]

...some people just resort to dirty, under-handed tactics, for example bashing on a persons confidence, or attempts at invading a person's personal boundaries.

You can't change other people. You can only change how you interact with them.
Curiously, that forces them to interact differently with you.

Some years ago I found this book helpful in dealing with difficult people.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0132835800/?tag=pfamazon01-20

There's plenty of self help books about interpersonal dealings. I read quite a few of them in my forties.

You sound a thoughtful person. Good luck to you on your life journey.

old jim

 

[Astronuc]

Before you challenge authority, you should make sure they can't point out that you are a fool. If you don't have proof you are right, you're just another person to be ignored (the nicest way I could put it).

The old quote "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt". Think about it before you decide to speak.

If you have researched thoroughly, have checked your facts repeatedly and think you have found some thing no one else has managed to find, go back and find where you made an error.

If you are so sure you've made no error, then see if anyone that is an authority on the subject is willing to review your work, and be ready for them to point out the error you missed.

And maybe you are that one in a billion that didn't make an error. You need to have made friends along the way with the people that have specialized in this field that can help you make your work known.

This is a lesson in any job, at any level, if you truly think you have something new to offer, the way to get it accepted is by asking, not challenging.

and 'choose one's battles wisely'.

It is best to use one's opponent's mass to one's advantage. A derivative of a Shao-lin proverb.

One must always challenge authority, especially poor/bad authority!

 

[ImaLooser]

Sergeant: Gump, why are we here?
Gump: To do whatever you say.
Sergeant: Gump, you must be a genius!

 

[Evo]

One must always challenge authority,

It's stupid to always challenge authority. Only challenge if you have good reason. There is a difference in questioning bad information and blindly questioning authority. I'm surprised that you would say such a thing Astronuc. Do you actually believe what you posted? Should members always question our rules without a reason?

Perhaps it is wiser to say "don't fear questioning authority"?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

authority is any of the established belief systems, it is the system in which you are called attention to, for being full of delusions. I don't think there could be any more than that.

I disagree with this as a definition for authority, it's much broader. Authority is the right/privilege to decide on an issue or perform an action e.g. speaking on an issue. There are many types of authority, a doctor for example is an authority on medical matters.

Of course one should challenge authority where there is reasonable grounds too and it is safe to do so. By all means question if someone deserves to have authority on a matter if you have a reasonable criticism (e.g. A politicians argument is logically flawed, a doctors statement contradicts medical consensus, the rational behind the authority status is unjustified etc) and it is a wise opportunity to challenge.

 

[pongo38]

There is no power over you that you do not accept.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

There is no power over you that you do not accept.

Try telling that to an army rampaging through your home town, or a legal system that classifies your behaviour or status as a crime, or a business with unethical practice that can outspend you in a protracted court case, or even to a social and economic set up that condemns you to poverty and destitution.

 

[nitsuj]

If your challenging authority is just for your own 'feel good, to be respected', then it's just male antler-clashing and that belongs in the animal world.

The OP reads as an adolescent.

So I'd say your comment is really what's going on, and imo is part of growing up. Of course some are more belligerent than others, especially as "losses" accumulate.

 

[Kholdstare]

http://www.fhm.com/imgs/631/400/0/original/standard/82977/Jackie-Chan-WTF.jpgx

 

[Astronuc]

It's stupid to always challenge authority. Only challenge if you have good reason. There is a difference in questioning bad information and blindly questioning authority. I'm surprised that you would say such a thing Astronuc. Do you actually believe what you posted? Should members always question our rules without a reason?

Perhaps it is wiser to say "don't fear questioning authority"?

By challenge, I mean question.

With respect to challenge, I don't imply being aggressive or provocative, nor did I mention 'blindly questioning'. Certainly one should have a good reason, such as the authority is wrong or acting in an arbitary or capricious manner, to challenge/question authority.

Of course, one should be judicious in one's actions.

 

[Andre]

For what it's worth, not -or rather insufficient- challenging authority has contributed to the largest air mishap of all times.

Not all is on internet but here is the most essential:

KLM 4805 reported ready for take-off and was given instructions for a Papa beacon departure. The KLM crew repeated the instructions and added "We are now at take-off". The brakes were released and KLM 4805 started the take-off roll.
Tenerife tower, knowing that Pan Am 1736 was still taxiing down the runway replied "OK ... Stand by for take-off, I will call you." This message coincided with the PanAm crew's transmission "No ... uh we're still taxiing down the runway, the Clipper 1736". These communications caused a shrill noise in the KLM cockpit, lasting approx. 3.74 seconds.

Tenerife tower replied: "Papa Alpha 1736 report runway clear.", whereupon the PanAm crew replied: "OK, will report when we're clear". This caused some concerns with the KLM flight engineer asking the captain: "Is he not clear then?" After repeating his question the captain answers emphatically: "Oh, yes".

There are hours of discussions with apparent reasons why the the captain thought why he was cleared for take off, but the flight engineer should have challenged authority: "No sir, abort, abort, abort, we're not cleared for take off". That might have saved his life and that of 582 others.

As a result, in many flying organisations, even the youngest crew/flight member is obliged to challenge authority and will not be sanctioned if his/her concerns were wrong in hindsight.

Edit:

It should also be noted that the captain was the #1 rated air line pilot of that time.

 

[Evo]

And how many disasters/deaths have resulted from people not following instructions?

I was watching a show about Pastuer developing the rabies vaccine. He was challenged by his assistant to the point of his assistant quitting, but luckily Pastuer was confident that he was right and went ahead with the treatment anyway and he was right. This saved hundreds of lives the first year and paved the way to the many life saving vaccines we have today.

 

[Gral]

Never my ideals need challenging, wisdom thrives on discord. Although I will say this the next person who challenges my parking space while I am manoevering in will die.

 

[member 392791]

rebel without a cause

 

[G01]

To the OP: Have you actually listened to your friends and let them have their say? Perhaps the OP should spend some time listening, figure out why their friends respect said authority, and then evaluate a response. People will not listen to you if you don't listen to them.

 

[Drakkith]

I have been an NCO in the U.S. Air Force for 6 years now. In that time I can say that I have had to lead people of all types of personalities, races, and backgrounds. I cannot claim that I have done an excellent job, nor even a good job. Only that I did the best I could with the knowledge and skills I had at the time.

I will tell you this. Everything changes when you end up on the "Side of Authority".

Practically no one in a position of authority is going to get on your case just because they are the authority. No, the situation is far more complicated. MOST of the time I have someone who just likes to "stand up to authority" they are utterly, truly, and completely idiotic. They are USUALLY, but not always, young men behaving like young men without a lick of life experience. (Or young women) They don't understand WHY rules are in place. They don't want to accept the fact that they have to do something they don't want to. I'm sorry but 99.9% of the time a person "stands up to authority" they simply has no idea that their actions have repercussions that go beyond themselves. OR they don't care. Or both even. Perhaps a bigger issue is they may not understand why they should care in the first place.

But it's not only that. I think a good deal of it is the attention they get from others by being "the rebel" if you will. They may not even realize they are doing it for the attention, especially if they have grown up like this. It has become second nature to them. They quite literally, don't know how else to behave. And they don't know that they don't know how to behave otherwise. One of the absolute hardest things for a person to do is to even consider that they may be wrong, that they may not know what they are talking about.

To the OP, you asked if it's wrong to challenge authority? There is no answer to this question, there are only opinions. All I can tell you is that EVERYTHING has a reason, and it's never "just because", no matter how often you get told that. That answer is given because the person can't explain why, doesn't know why, doesn't have the time to explain...the list goes on and on.

If you truly want to know I suggest you put yourself in a position of leadership or authority and then deal with someone like yourself. You will QUICKLY find out why it's frowned upon.

 

[phion]

Is it wrong to challenge them?

You need to earn your stay, regardless of what you think you know or what you have been through. Once you've either (1) earned the respect of authority or (2) become an authority yourself, you will always encounter challenges, and even then there will be challenges but probably of the self-induced sort.

Challenging authority is only healthy, but when it gets in the way of being rational or wise or becomes some type of self-fulfilling prophecy, that's when the distinction should become apparent.

It has a lot to do with maturity too. For instance, I used to hate being corrected or having my core beliefs challenged or whatever else; however, now, I welcome it with open arms because my own thinking simply stopped getting me anywhere, at least nowhere I really wanted to be.

 

[Andre]

And how many disasters/deaths have resulted from people not following instructions?

That doesn't seem to be the issue here.

Maybe for a contrast have a look at the principle of Crew Resource Management, as a lesson learned of the Tenerife disaster:

CRM aims to foster a climate or culture where the freedom to respectfully question authority is encouraged.

.

If one thinks that 'the boss is the boss' please do read this paragraph.

 

[Buckleymanor]

I was watching a show about Pastuer developing the rabies vaccine. He was challenged by his assistant to the point of his assistant quitting, but luckily Pastuer was confident that he was right and went ahead with the treatment anyway and he was right. This saved hundreds of lives the first year and paved the way to the many life saving vaccines we have today.

I once watched a show about a nation lead by a man who marched into Poland who also set up death camps and tried to wipe out a whole race.The nation he ruled over were in denial of the concentration camps and they never were never able to challenge his authority with success.Pity!

 

[Tenshou]

To the OP: Have you actually listened to your friends and let them have their say? Perhaps the OP should spend some time listening, figure out why their friends respect said authority, and then evaluate a response. People will not listen to you if you don't listen to them.

I agree with you, but when I do listen and point out to them the flaw in their logic they get upset, and "disown" (If that is an okay word to use) me. Sometimes, listening means following. ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ

I have been an NCO in the U.S. Air Force for 6 years now. In that time I can say that I have had to lead people of all types of personalities, races, and backgrounds. I cannot claim that I have done an excellent job, nor even a good job. Only that I did the best I could with the knowledge and skills I had at the time.

I will tell you this. Everything changes when you end up on the "Side of Authority".

Practically no one in a position of authority is going to get on your case just because they are the authority. No, the situation is far more complicated. MOST of the time I have someone who just likes to "stand up to authority" they are utterly, truly, and completely idiotic. They are USUALLY, but not always, young men behaving like young men without a lick of life experience. (Or young women) They don't understand WHY rules are in place. They don't want to accept the fact that they have to do something they don't want to. I'm sorry but 99.9% of the time a person "stands up to authority" they simply has no idea that their actions have repercussions that go beyond themselves. OR they don't care. Or both even. Perhaps a bigger issue is they may not understand why they should care in the first place.

But it's not only that. I think a good deal of it is the attention they get from others by being "the rebel" if you will. They may not even realize they are doing it for the attention, especially if they have grown up like this. It has become second nature to them. They quite literally, don't know how else to behave. And they don't know that they don't know how to behave otherwise. One of the absolute hardest things for a person to do is to even consider that they may be wrong, that they may not know what they are talking about.

To the OP, you asked if it's wrong to challenge authority? There is no answer to this question, there are only opinions. All I can tell you is that EVERYTHING has a reason, and it's never "just because", no matter how often you get told that. That answer is given because the person can't explain why, doesn't know why, doesn't have the time to explain...the list goes on and on.

If you truly want to know I suggest you put yourself in a position of leadership or authority and then deal with someone like yourself. You will QUICKLY find out why it's frowned upon.

Yeah, I understand some people just do it for the attention, but if you constantly seek better ways in understanding something, why do it for the attention, even if the person doesn't understand the repercussion doesn't mean the consequence will be bad, does it? There is always time to explain, if not "now" then make it, if you don't know why not seek?!? Agree? I have been in a role of leadership, things went fine, except the fact they didn't like me. You cannot change a persons feeling even if you try they still reject you. I don't command people. If they don't want to do something, then I will do it my self, "if you need a job done right, do it your self." they don't count as a member of a cohesive team to serve a common,a corporation.

You need to earn your stay, regardless of what you think you know or what you have been through. Once you've either (1) earned the respect of authority or (2) become an authority yourself, you will always encounter challenges, and even then there will be challenges but probably of the self-induced sort.

Challenging authority is only healthy, but when it gets in the way of being rational or wise or becomes some type of self-fulfilling prophecy, that's when the distinction should become apparent.

It has a lot to do with maturity too. For instance, I used to hate being corrected or having my core beliefs challenged or whatever else; however, now, I welcome it with open arms because my own thinking simply stopped getting me anywhere, at least nowhere I really wanted to be.

I agree you have to earn that respect. Don't get me wrong, most authoritative figures do enjoy having idea challenged and like being changed, because this is a part of growing up, becoming wiser when you question an established belief system, or the "powers that be", you know what I mean?

I disagree with this as a definition for authority, it's much broader. Authority is the right/privilege to decide on an issue or perform an action e.g. speaking on an issue. There are many types of authority, a doctor for example is an authority on medical matters.

Of course one should challenge authority where there is reasonable grounds too and it is safe to do so. By all means question if someone deserves to have authority on a matter if you have a reasonable criticism (e.g. A politicians argument is logically flawed, a doctors statement contradicts medical consensus, the rational behind the authority status is unjustified etc) and it is a wise opportunity to challenge.

I understand what you mean and the same with Evo that you should not question blindly, I mean without a good cause, yet isn't the politician's argument logically flawed? Isn't the doctors contradictory statement always going to go against what is the ethics at the time? So I take back what I said about what an authority figure is, you are right. An authority figure is much broader than my definition, thank you Ryan_m_b

It's stupid to always challenge authority. Only challenge if you have good reason. There is a difference in questioning bad information and blindly questioning authority. I'm surprised that you would say such a thing Astronuc. Do you actually believe what you posted? Should members always question our rules without a reason?

Perhaps it is wiser to say "don't fear questioning authority"?

you are right, but would you not be afraid if you questioned unreasonable actions that the authority has made? For example, take Nazi Germany and the unreasonable killings of millions of people, some people thought it was the right thing to do, not question the person in the leadership role ( possibly fearing for their lives, or because you aren't suppose to do that, a cultural thing.), Do you know what is good and bad outside the context of a social/cultural situation? (I thought I put this post in the humanities, whatever?)

There is no power over you that you do not accept.

you are exactly right pongo! This is hard to do stay out of a place in which you wish someone not to exert influence over you, and yet the same is true the other way.