# Tonight I Visit The The Bowlless Bowl

#### Zero

Originally posted by Fliption
With what little I know of him and his program, yes I have to agree. I would much rather jump through his hoops then go to the trouble of setting up websites, brochures, and infommercials to sell my products. Not to mention all the trouble I go through to bill and collect from my customers, and prepare my business tax returns. UGH! And the last thing I would want to do is go to all this trouble and teach people how to do this only to have them go collect the $1M! IMO, what this$1M offer accomplishes is that it automatically exposes all these type of sites as frauds because it automatically puts their motivations in question. I can't think of a single rational reason why they would do what they are doing if they were legit. It is much easier to believe they can't do anything special and are taking advantage of people to earn some quick bucks.
And Randi has his tests done independently, the money is in a trust, and you can set the terms of the test, within limits. If I had magic powers, I'd walk in, do the test, and never work another day in my life. Even if you were a good faker, if you could convince Randi, it would be worth possible millions in publicity.

#### Iacchus32

Originally posted by Fliption
Well, I am always a bit leary when people are asking for my money. But maybe thats just me. Here is the question that I always ask myself.. "If I had the knowledge or ability that this person claims to have, would I be selling it to other people?" The answer is almost always "no". If money is needed to fund "getting the word out" then there is almost always better ways to do it. In this case, if money is what I need then I would take James Randi up on his offer and demonstrate remote viewing. Then I wouldn't need to charge $98 to change the world. Once you've won the million dollars going through this test, the world will definitely begin to change. With James Randi's help I might add! Unfortunately (I guess?) in a capitalist society money is the rate of exchage, so instead of asking for barter in exchange for services (although I guess that's probably still capitalism), we ask for money. "The workman is worth his meat." While I hate to tell you this, a lot of us don't "believe" in James Randi. My question will also keep you from buying any get rich quick schemes. If you know how to get rich quick then why are you bothering to sell it to me for a fee? LOL. You could claim you're doing it out of the kindness of your heart, but the act of spreading such an idea would utlimately seal it's doom. Thats how capitalism works. Overall, answering these questions rationally just doesn't lend a whole lot of credibility to these websites and ideas. I did happen to check out the "order page" by the way, and noticed they're offering a 30 day money back guarantee, so that might help to ease the uncertainty of some people. That's capitalism at work too now isn't it? Last edited: #### Zero Originally posted by Iacchus32 While I hate to tell you this, a lot of us don't "believe" in James Randi. Regardless of what you believe, he DOES at least exist...and I can PROVE IT. Anyhoo, I don't believe in him...worship belongs to your side of the argument, not mine...and you guys will follow anyone or anything yourheart so desires, without any proof but teh good feelings that comfortable lies provide. Last edited by a moderator: #### Iacchus32 Originally posted by Fliption With what little I know of him and his program, yes I have to agree. I would much rather jump through his hoops then go to the trouble of setting up websites, brochures, and infommercials to sell my products. Not to mention all the trouble I go through to bill and collect from my customers, and prepare my business tax returns. UGH! And the last thing I would want to do is go to all this trouble and teach people how to do this only to have them go collect the$1M!
Then that sounds to me like there's no sense of a commitment on your part. You know what they say, put your money (and hence resources) where your mouth is.

IMO, what this $1M offer accomplishes is that it automatically exposes all these type of sites as frauds because it automatically puts their motivations in question. I can't think of a single rational reason why they would do what they are doing if they were legit. It is much easier to believe they can't do anything special and are taking advantage of people to earn some quick bucks. Then by this you're "implying" that the guys who do remote viewing are not legitimate ... whatever. #### Zero Originally posted by Iacchus32 Then by this you're "implying" that the guys who do remote viewing are not legitimate ... whatever. He might imply it..I am saying outright that it is a scam, a fraud, and a delusion, until someone presents evidence to the contrary. ANd, by evidence, I mean more than anecdotes, I mean something that can be submitted for peer-review. #### Iacchus32 Originally posted by Zero Regardless of what you believe, he DOES at least exist...and I can PROVE IT. Anyhoo, I don't believe in him...worship belongs to your side of the argument, not mine...and you guys will follow anyone or anything yourheart so desires, without any proof but teh good feelings that comfortable lies provide. Yes, but can you "prove" his intentions? Ahh, it's just a big act and you know it! #### Zero Originally posted by Iacchus32 Yes, but can you "prove" his intentions? Ahh, it's just a big act and you know it! Well, it is easy...all someone has to do is accept the test!! #### Iacchus32 Originally posted by Zero Well, it is easy...all someone has to do is accept the test!! Originally posted by Iacchus32 Originally posted by Fliption IMO, what this$1M offer accomplishes is that it automatically exposes all these type of sites as frauds because it automatically puts their motivations in question. I can't think of a single rational reason why they would do what they are doing if they were legit. It is much easier to believe they can't do anything special and are taking advantage of people to earn some quick bucks.
Then by this you're "implying" that the guys who do remote viewing are not legitimate ... whatever.
If somebody believes in something strongly enough, then they should be willing to put their money where there mouth is and not have to rely upon somebody like James Randi for support. Matter of fact I think people would find it much more believable if you were to do the work yourself, rather than "selling out" to some crackpot like James Randi.

#### FZ+

If somebody believes in something strongly enough, then they should be willing to put their money where there mouth is and not have to rely upon somebody like James Randi for support. Matter of fact I think people would find it much more believable if you were to do the work yourself, rather than "selling out" to some crackpot like James Randi.
But the million dollar test is not a matter of proving their belief - it is a certificate confirming the execution of a controlled, scientifically objective test. It is not a matter of relying on selling out to randi, it's a legal idea - the independent witness. And Randi is about as independent from any claim of paranormal activity as you can get. The randi fund was never about the money - it was about putting something to a reasonable scrutiny in an environment where someone's intentions or beliefs are irrelevant. Randi does not fudge the tests. They are not impossible tests, but tests carried out regularly in any scientific work.
There is no apparently reasonable reason why anyone would not submit to this test, unless if they think that finding out if their idea is true is irrelevant.

#### Fliption

Originally posted by Iacchus32
While I hate to tell you this, a lot of us don't "believe" in James Randi.
I'm not sure I understand what this means. Forget James Randi. Let's just talk about the general situation. Someone has offered a large sum of money to anyone who can show that they have these abilities. What possible rational reason could one have to NOT do this?

I did happen to check out the "order page" by the way, and noticed they're offering a 30 day money back guarantee, so that might help to ease the uncertainty of some people. That's capitalism at work too now isn't it?
Well sure. But statistically it can be shown that there are "some" people who will be satisfied with substandard results and also that another group of people who aren't satisfied won't bother to return it for a refund. It's all about money in the end.

Iacchus32, I have read many of your posts and certainly can respect your unique angle to the issues that get discussed here. But on this particular thing I am a bit perplexed. I'm sure you will admit that there are crackpot fakes in the world who are trying to do nothing but make a penny. I don't think anyone would deny this. So how exactly do you distinguish the frauds from the real thing? I can appreciate being open to things but being open to everything and everybody is a bit different. Especially when you know some are frauds. Right?

I think someone offering enough money to retire on for proof of supernatural abilities is a worthwhile thing. I cannot think of any reason why a legit person would not take this offer. Can you? Please let me know if you can.

As I said before I don't know much about this guy so maybe you have some information that makes his offer unreasonable. I am open to hearing it. But all this talk about ego is not sufficient for me. That is a bit of a dodge and an obvious attempt to avoid what this offer really means. If no one will step up and take the challenge, then they know they are frauds and don't want everyone else to know. I'm having trouble coming up with reasoning that differs from this.

#### Iacchus32

Originally posted by FZ+
But the million dollar test is not a matter of proving their belief - it is a certificate confirming the execution of a controlled, scientifically objective test. It is not a matter of relying on selling out to randi, it's a legal idea - the independent witness. And Randi is about as independent from any claim of paranormal activity as you can get. The randi fund was never about the money - it was about putting something to a reasonable scrutiny in an environment where someone's intentions or beliefs are irrelevant. Randi does not fudge the tests. They are not impossible tests, but tests carried out regularly in any scientific work.
There is no apparently reasonable reason why anyone would not submit to this test, unless if they think that finding out if their idea is true is irrelevant.
And yet, one does not need to go through all this rigmarole to determine that God exists. In fact it's all about one's "interior perception." Which is the whole point, because if we were to establish God externally (i.e., through the sensationalism of Randi's approach), without learning how to approach the God "within us," then that becomes tantamount to idolatry, and we all will have missed the boat.

While it's for this reason that the ancient Israelites where forbidden to create idols and "bow down and worship them." Because they would not be worshipping the creation of God, but the creation of man. Neither would they be worshipping the "Spirit of God," which is that which redeems us.

#### FZ+

All well and good, but Randi is limited to paranormal claims regarding reality. A personal belief does not consistute proof, and so to rule out randi is to say that this belief neccessarily does not correspond to reality. With all such beliefs, they are not disprovable but they are neccessarily not provable. Hence, you cannot rightly make the statement they are true, and cannot determine whether god exists, only what YOU belief regarding this. You have missed the point - the point is that Randi is not about disproving God. It is about comparing views of the measurable reality. If something cannot go to any one of Randi's tests, then it cannot be true. It may not be false either.

Would any astrologer, remote viewing specialist, telepath, faith healer care to say that their practices are merely a belief, purely in the mind and have no effect on reality? I doubt it.

#### Iacchus32

Originally posted by FZ+
All well and good, but Randi is limited to paranormal claims regarding reality. A personal belief does not consistute proof, and so to rule out randi is to say that this belief neccessarily does not correspond to reality. With all such beliefs, they are not disprovable but they are neccessarily not provable. Hence, you cannot rightly make the statement they are true, and cannot determine whether god exists, only what YOU belief regarding this. You have missed the point - the point is that Randi is not about disproving God. It is about comparing views of the measurable reality. If something cannot go to any one of Randi's tests, then it cannot be true. It may not be false either.
No, what I'm saying is we don't want to be worshipping "external gods," because you're right, they don't exist -- not in time and space anyway which, I guess is saying the same thing.

Would any astrologer, remote viewing specialist, telepath, faith healer care to say that their practices are merely a belief, purely in the mind and have no effect on reality? I doubt it.
And yet they don't seem to have too much trouble getting other people to buy what they're selling -- to what extent of it's mumbo jumbo or not I couldn't tell you? -- so why should they concern themselves with James Randi?

#### TENYEARS

So the closer I come, the further I have to go from what is generally considered to be sanity and rational thought?

Actually the first two can take you to the edge, you must jump into the unknowing knowing or maybe life will knock you in.

#### FZ+

No, what I'm saying is we don't want to be worshipping "external gods," because you're right, they don't exist -- not in time and space anyway which, I guess is saying the same thing.
Then you can't attack Randi here, because Randi as a factual test represents an attempt to get away from subjective beliefs into objective reality.

And yet they don't seem to have too much trouble getting other people to buy what they're selling -- to what extent of it's mumbo jumbo or not I couldn't tell you? -- so why should they concern themselves with James Randi?
Because supposedly they don't like to wear a sticker saying "I don't care about being true, I just want to make money off gullible people."

#### Iacchus32

Originally posted by FZ+
Then you can't attack Randi here, because Randi as a factual test represents an attempt to get away from subjective beliefs into objective reality.
What are you suggesting we "sanitize" our relationship with God?

Because supposedly they don't like to wear a sticker saying "I don't care about being true, I just want to make money off gullible people."
Nope, not good enough. To "dismiss" is not to "disprove." However, if you wish to remain skeptical about the whole thing, that's entirely up to you.

#### TENYEARS

This is a decent conversation going on here with good opinions.

Randi will never attract the real thing with what he has posted and the way he goes about it. The real thing will not sell it self it cannot by it's nature. Christ in the devil in the desert it's about being a human being and not selling out. You cannot have both. If you take one the other goes. This is how it works. I am not saying that if you physically take the money all visions/experiences etc... will go instantaneiously, but the affect of what you have taken will diminish that which you have fought to understand.

My purpose is the affect that the lack of balance created from a departure of truth. Even if the truth is not a relization, if one does not waste because that is the way. If one does not pollute becuase one knows one must drink and breath. One watches the children and teaches them what it is to be a human being becuause they are our future. If one acknowleges ones family and people who surround us because that with the sweat from our brow is what made us.

There must be another way than Randi or getting people to buy a stinking book. I already know I could sell a stinking book and what ??? good would it do? I would have to write the ??? thing first but all it would do is have bunch of believers on hand either way I suppose you have nothing but believers.

Help me out here people, if you can. I need more uses for a red brick.

#### Iacchus32

Originally posted by Zero
Regardless of what you believe, he DOES at least exist...and I can PROVE IT. Anyhoo, I don't believe in him...worship belongs to your side of the argument, not mine...and you guys will follow anyone or anything yourheart so desires, without any proof but teh good feelings that comfortable lies provide.
Actually I don't believe in anybody, or anything, except the "ground of my own being" (my existence). Perhaps this is what makes me such a "good skeptic?"

#### Iacchus32

A Conversation With Judith Orloff

What do you mean when you describe intuition as a "dynamic therapeutic tool"?

As a psychiatrist and intuitive, I meet each patient with all my skills. In the first session I immediately get an overall grasp of what a patient's issues are; it doesn't take months of intellectual probing to "figure the situation out." Then, after I teach my patients to get in touch with and trust their own intuition, we work together very efficiently. I watch them gain confidence and skill confronting their problems, and the treatment benefits in unbelievable ways.

It seems that we, as a culture, are out of touch with intuition. Why is it blocked in so many people? Why don't people "trust their gut"?

Western culture reveres technology and the mind above all else - at the expense of intuition. As children we aren't trained to connect with and respect our intuition; so we can't tell what is truly meaningful because we don't know what, or whom, to trust, including ourselves. We lose touch with our instincts, and thus lose access to vital information about ourselves - physically and emotionally. Many people with depression or anxiety have blocked intuition; and biochemical imbalances, if present, make accessing intuition even more difficult. As adults, we need to be guided back to our inner knowledge.

http://www.drjudithorloff.com/QnA.asp
TENYEARS:

Dr. Orloff is a clairvoyant who went the through rigors of Medical School to become a psychiatrist, which she has been practicing for some time now, while including some of the techniques she developed as a clairvoyant. Perhaps if you contacted her maybe she could give you some advice? She is very much on the level here.

http://www.drjudithorloff.com/

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#### Fliption

Originally posted by TENYEARS

Randi will never attract the real thing with what he has posted and the way he goes about it. The real thing will not sell it self it cannot by it's nature.
I'm not sure I see the difference between teaching Randi how to do something and collecting a million dollars and teaching me to do something and collecting \$98 from me. Why is one a sellout and the other is not?

#### Iacchus32

Here are a couple of radio programs that discuss paranormal things and what not. In fact Judith Orloff appeared on the Laura Lee Show at one point. As for Art Bell, he may be only making appearances anymore. As a matter of fact if you follow the link you'll probably be directed to a different site, although I think it's still the same basic format.

http://www.lauralee.com/

http://www.lauralee.com/orloff.htm [Broken]

http://www.artbell.com/

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#### TENYEARS

Iacchus32, I checked out the one site and will probably check out the rest. My gut did not hit on the first site I will check the rest. Thanks

Flipton, money corrupts because it sets up walls which directs the flow of the waters of ones self. Taking 98 bucks per person is also stealing from people who are reaching out to try to understand something or possibly change their lives. The main purpose here is to show that reality exists beyond what has ever been done. If it is recognized because there is proof some people will break free from themselves and make the leap.

#### Zero

I think it is a cop out to say that there is something wrong with the idea of ESPers proving that they are the real thing.

#### Iacchus32

More Judith Orloff ...

From the URLAT, http://www.newdimensions.org/online-journal/articles/developing-psychic-vision.html" [Broken] ...

DEVELOPING A RELATIONSHIP WITH PSYCHIC VISION
a conversation with Judith Orloff, M.D.

The psychic realm has been much misunderstood and maligned in our Western scientifically biased culture. Science is just beginning to open it's long-biased eyes to the possibility that psychic phenomena may indeed exist. Things like synchronicity, precognitive dreams, clairvoyance, intuition, healing by touch and other meta-normal and metaphysical events may indeed be valid ...

Michael Toms: Judith, when did you start to feel that you had psychic gifts?

Judith Orloff: I had my first psychic experience when I was nine years old, when I had a dream visitation from my grandfather. In the dream he came to me to let me know that he was going to die. It was quite natural as it was happening. But when I woke up, it was dark and I got very scared. I ran into my parent's room, woke them up, and told them. They basically smiled at me and said, "Oh, no dear, you're just having a nightmare, that's all." But the next morning, my aunt called from the East Coast to let us know that my grandfather had passed on. So that was really my first experience that I had. My parents, who were both physicians in Los Angeles, kind of looked at me askance and wrote it off as an eerie coincidence.

MT: Were your parents supportive as you continued to have experiences?

JO: Not at all. For the next two years, I had many psychic experiences, all of which were quite negative. I would predict things like earthquakes, or disasters or illnesses ...

After that my mother told me never to mention another one of my premonitions to her again. And I didn't. I kept what I thought to be a shameful secret deep inside of me.