Topology of Black Holes: Decomposing the Manifold and the Role of Knots

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the topology of black holes, specifically exploring whether a black hole can be represented through Heegaard decompositions or as the complement of a knot. Participants examine the topological characteristics of the manifold associated with black holes, including various proposed models and their implications.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the cross section of spacetime near a black hole can be thought of as a manifold, but there is uncertainty about what is meant by "cross section."
  • One participant states that the topological manifold describing the maximally extended Schwarzschild spacetime is ##S^2 \times R^2##, while a more physically reasonable model is ##R^4##.
  • Another participant clarifies that a cobordism can only exist between compact manifolds, suggesting that the manifolds discussed are not compact.
  • There is a suggestion to explore the topology of black holes to compute the Witten-Reshetikhin-Turaev invariant, although the feasibility of this is questioned.
  • One participant introduces the idea of adding a point at infinity to the real line, but doubts its physical relevance.
  • There is a discussion about the clarity of what is meant by "black hole topology," with questions about whether it refers to the entire spacetime, the event horizon, or other regions.
  • Participants note that the connectedness of the black hole region depends on the specific spacetime being considered.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the definitions and implications of black hole topology, with no consensus reached on the specific models or interpretations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the clarity of terms and the physical relevance of proposed topological representations.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include ambiguity in the definitions of "cross section" and "black hole topology," as well as the dependence on the specific spacetime models being referenced. There is also uncertainty regarding the compactness of the manifolds discussed.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying general relativity, topology, and mathematical physics, particularly in relation to black hole theory and its mathematical implications.

nateHI
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Can a black hole be presented as a Heegaard decomposition or as the complement of a knot?

I'll try and elaborate: If I understand correctly, the cross section of spacetime near a black hole can be thought of topologically as a manifold. What manifold is it? Can the manifold be decomposed?
 
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nateHI said:
the cross section of spacetime near a black hole

What do you mean by "cross section"?

nateHI said:
What manifold is it?

The topological manifold that describes the maximally extended Schwarzschild spacetime is ##S^2 \times R^2##. However, that spacetime is not physically reasonable. A physically reasonable spacetime that describes a black hole formed by the gravitational collapse of an ordinary object has topology ##R^4##.

These manifolds are for the entire spacetime. As above, I don't know what you mean by "cross section".
 
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PeterDonis said:
What do you mean by "cross section"?

I'm not sure about the physics term so maybe I should have stuck with the math. By cross section, I mean one of the boundaries of a cobordism between two 3-manifolds.
 
nateHI said:
By cross section, I mean the boundary of a cobordism between two 3-manifolds.

AFAIK you can only have a cobordism between compact manifolds. Neither the 4-manifolds I described, nor any 3-manifold "cross sections" you could take from them, would be compact.

Also, the spacetime describing a black hole is a single manifold, not two.

It might help if you would take a step back and explain why you are interested in this.
 
PeterDonis said:
It might help if you would take a step back and explain why you are interested in this.

I want to understand the topology of a black hole so that I can think about how (or if it's even possible) to compute its Witten-Reshetikhin-Turaev invariant.
 
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nateHI said:
I want to understand the topology of a black hole so that I can think about how (or if it's even possible) to compute its Witten-Reshetikhin-Turaev invariant.

You're probably better off asking about this in the math forum. I've already given you the two relevant 4-manifolds, topologically speaking, that I know of that have anything to do with black holes: ##S^2 \times R^2## and ##R^4##. A 3-manifold cross section of these would have topology of either ##S^2 \times R## or ##R^3##. Anything beyond that would be better asked of the regulars in the math forum.
 
Well, add the point at infinity to the real line and you are in business. I have no idea if that makes any physical sense though. The space S^2xS^1 is the complement of the unknot with no framing. The associated invariants are easy to compute. Unfortunately nothing interesting falls out as I had hoped.
 
nateHI said:
add the point at infinity to the real line and you are in business. I have no idea if that makes any physical sense though.

It doesn't.
 
To me it is still unclear what you mean by the black hole topology. The topology of the whole space-time? The event horizon? The black hole region? The intersection of the event horizon with a space-like hypersurface? Also do you assume that the black hole region is connected (one black hole) or not?
 
  • #10
martinbn said:
To me it is still unclear what you mean by the black hole topology.

The OP would have to say what he meant. The topologies I gave in post #2 were for the whole spacetime. In post #6 I gave possible topologies for 3-surfaces "sliced" out of the whole spacetime.

martinbn said:
do you assume that the black hole region is connected (one black hole) or not?

It depends on which spacetime you're looking at. In the maximally extended Schwarzschild spacetime, there are two "hole" regions which are disconnected; one is called the "black hole" and one is called the "white hole". But each of those regions, taken individually, is connected.

In the more realistic spacetime that describes a black hole formed by gravitational collapse, there is only one black hole region and it is connected.
 
  • #11
May guess is that he didn't mean just a Schwarzschild black hole, but was asking about black holes in general.
 
  • #12
It seems that in order to make my question less muddy I would need to study GR a bit myself first.
 
  • #13
nateHI said:
It seems that in order to make my question less muddy I would need to study GR a bit myself first.
At your shown level of mathematical sophistication, try first Wald's book then Hawking and Ellis, just for the physics part.
 

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