Total mass-energy v nature of forces, particles

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Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the relationship between the total mass-energy of the universe and the characteristics of forces and force-carrier particles, particularly within the frameworks of cosmology and particle physics. Participants consider whether variations in total mass-energy could lead to differences in the nature and strength of forces and particles, and the implications of these ideas on broader philosophical questions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions if the total mass-energy of the universe being different would alter the nature and strength of forces and force-carrier particles.
  • Another participant notes that there is no known causal connection in the direction of mass-energy affecting forces, suggesting instead that different coupling strengths or boson masses would lead to a different energy distribution and expansion history.
  • A participant expresses interest in insights from a physics perspective on the philosophical question of the relationship between the characteristics of particles and the whole universe.
  • One participant cautions against delving into the philosophy of science, indicating that it can be polarizing and unproductive.
  • Another participant mentions that vacuum genesis is not part of the standard model of cosmology, suggesting that quantum fluctuations could affect constants and laws, thus impacting the nature of particles.
  • A later reply critiques the speculative nature of vacuum genesis, proposing a simpler explanation for the universe's expansion that does not require complex scenarios or philosophical considerations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of total mass-energy on forces and particles, with some arguing against a direct causal connection while others explore speculative ideas. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives present.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the speculative nature of certain theories, such as vacuum genesis, and the limitations of current models in addressing the philosophical implications of the relationship between mass-energy and particle characteristics.

tempus
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What does the standard model have to say about the relationship between the total mass-energy of the universe and the characteristics of forces and force-carrier particles?

That is, if the total mass-energy were different, would the nature, strength, … of the forces and force-carrier particles be different?

Alternatively, would the nature of forces and particles be different at this point in time if the total mass-energy density of the universe were different at this point in time?

Thx
 
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Which standard model, cosmology or particle physics?
tempus said:
That is, if the total mass-energy were different, would the nature, strength, … of the forces and force-carrier particles be different?
There is no known causal connection in this direction.
The opposite direction is true: different coupling strength or boson masses would have lead to a different distribution of the energy, which then leads to a different total energy density due to the expansion of space (it also leads to a different expansion history).
 
Thank you, mfb.

Standard model of both as a baseline.

In broader terms, I'm interested in insights from a physics / physicalist / materialist perspective (cosmology, particle physics) into the philosophical question of the one and the many, and how the character of particles are related (causally or in a more general sense of relation) to the character of the whole.

Any further insights would be appreciated.
 
We tend not to wander into philosophy of science, it is usually becomes polarizing and counterproductive.
 
I should have followed up more directly on mfb's helpful response.

Iiuc, vacuum genesis (zero-point universe) is not part of the standard model of cosmology. But under that theory, the nature of the quantum fluctuation generating the universe would affect the nature of the constants, laws and, therefore, nature of particles. Correct?
 
"Vacuum genesis" is soooooo speculative, Tempus! You get immediately into a philosophical wonderland. There must be dozens of different scenarios or ways people imagine "vacuum genesis", some producing entirely different constants, if that interests you.

Here's a simpler explanation for the start of our universe' expansion, where we get exactly these constants and laws that we see.

Also we get the observable homogeneity and CMB fluctuations, and we don't even need an "inflaton" field---a popular but problematical bit of exotica.

Just google: "LambdaCDM bounce" and look at the paper by Edward Wilson-Ewing and Yi-fu Cai with approximately that title. LambdaCDM is the technical term, as you probably know, for the standard cosmic model.

the LamdaCDM universe we see around us could (most simply) have started expanding with a bounce--- from the same universe in a contracting phase, with the same laws.

No philosophy, no drama. Make up more complex stories at your own risk, but at least check out the simplest scenario. It came out in December 2014, as I recall.

Ed Wilson-Ewing was the winner of this year's Bronstein Prize, partly in recognition for this work.
 

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