Translating Poetry: Is the Soul Lost?

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In summary, the conversation discusses the impact of translation on poetry and how it can potentially change the meaning and beauty of the original work. Some argue that a translator must be a skilled poet in order to capture the essence of the poem, while others suggest using technology, such as Google services, for translation. The conversation also touches on the humorous aspect of translating poetry and shares some personal experiences with translating and reading foreign works. Finally, a poem by Majnun Lyla is shared, highlighting the challenges and sacrifices of love.
  • #1
drizzle
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Problem is I found that poetry is its best with the initial written language, I can roughly say that half of its glamour is gone once it’s translated! Of course, I’m not speaking about something I’ve translated myself, cause I’ll ruin the whole poem. :biggrin: I do remember translating a few lines though, written by some Iraqi person I guess, and post them here, and I did find it a bit different... I don’t mean the rhyme or assonance which are depending on the language used, but ‘the soul’, if I may so say, of the poem.

What about you, have you tried to translate a poem, or have you read an original one and its translated version, do you find it the same, what do you think?
 
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  • #2
Hmm, interesting question.

When I was young I learned enough French to read simple literature ("Le Petit Prince" for example). But I don't recall reading French poetry, so I can't say directly.

But I've read some translated Persian poetry that was really nice. If a lot was lost in translation, it must be amazing originally.
 
  • #3
Yes, I have found different translations of foreign works and some were so different as to completely change the meaning.
 
  • #4
lisab said:
... But I've read some translated Persian poetry that was really nice. If a lot was lost in translation, it must be amazing originally.

Heh, funny it reminds me of some amazing arabic poems I've read, and turned out the poets are Persian.
 
  • #5
Speaking of the hilarious. In high school in Russia we've circulated poems written in Pushkin's style about the dirtiest topics. I still am amazed to this day how someone could come up with so many hilarious poems written in the same style as Pushkin but in a totally hilarious way. Unknown author, recognized by everyone
 
  • #6
drizzle said:
Problem is I found that poetry is its best with the initial written language, I can roughly say that half of its glamour is gone once it’s translated! Of course, I’m not speaking about something I’ve translated myself, cause I’ll ruin the whole poem. :biggrin: I do remember translating a few lines though, written by some Iraqi person I guess, and post them here, and I did find it a bit different... I don’t mean the rhyme or assonance which are depending on the language used, but ‘the soul’, if I may so say, of the poem.

What about you, have you tried to translate a poem, or have you read an original one and its translated version, do you find it the same, what do you think?

I agree with you. In fact, I would say much more than half of it is often changed in some way - glamour or not.

I think that the translator has got to be a poet of at least as equal prowess as the original poet, and even then, would end up with something quite different from the original.
 
  • #7
I will say this: never read a translated Chinese poem.
 
  • #8
I guess people who speak foreign languages wouldn't even know where Nantucket is.
 
  • #9
Problem is I found that poetry is its best with the initial written language, I can roughly say that half of its glamour is gone once it’s translated!
The reason is that it's people who did the translation. We should simply let computers do poetry translation. I recommend Google services. Pure poetry!
 
  • #10
haael said:
The reason is that it's people who did the translation. We should simply let computers do poetry translation. I recommend Google services. Pure poetry!

:rofl:
 
  • #11
Yes let's try this famous poem

Le Corbeau et le Renard by Jean de LA FONTAINE (1621-1695)
Maître Corbeau, sur un arbre perché,
Tenait en son bec un fromage.
Maître Renard, par l'odeur alléché,
Lui tint à peu près ce langage :
"Hé ! bonjour, Monsieur du Corbeau.
Que vous êtes joli ! que vous me semblez beau !
Sans mentir, si votre ramage
Se rapporte à votre plumage,
Vous êtes le Phénix des hôtes de ces bois. "
A ces mots le Corbeau ne se sent pas de joie ;
Et pour montrer sa belle voix,
Il ouvre un large bec, laisse tomber sa proie.
Le Renard s'en saisit, et dit : "Mon bon Monsieur,
Apprenez que tout flatteur
Vit aux dépens de celui qui l'écoute :
Cette leçon vaut bien un fromage, sans doute. "
Le Corbeau, honteux et confus,
Jura, mais un peu tard, qu'on ne l'y prendrait plus.

and the result not bad at all:

The Raven and the Fox
Master Crow perched on a tree,
Kept a cheese in his beak.
Mr. Fox, by the smell,
Said something like this:
"Well, Hello Mister Crow.
Whether you are pretty! you seem to me!
Really, if your song
Is like your plumage,
You are the phoenix of these woods. "
At these words, the Crow is overjoyed;
To show off his beautiful voice,
He opens his beak wide, let's his prey.
The Fox snapped it up and said: "My dear sir,
Learn that every flatterer
Lives at the expense of the listener:
This lesson is well worth a cheese no doubt. "
The Crow, ashamed and confused
Swore, a bit late, do not be taken again.
 
  • #12
Kind of a story Andre, I like this part:
"Learn that every flatterer
Lives at the expense of the listener"
 
  • #13
Yes, exactly, it's called a fable but see that the French version is on rhyme.
 
  • #14
One of Majnun Lyla's poems, so nice to share, here is the original text:
لو كان لي قلبان لعشت بواحد
و تركت قلبا في هواك يعذب
لكن لي قلبا تملكه الهوى
لا العيش يحلو له ولا الموت يطلب
كعصفورة بيد طفل يضمها
تذوق سياط الموت و الطفل يلعب
فلا الطفل ذو عقل يحن لما بها
و لا الطير ذو ريش يطير فيهرب

أنا في سبيل الله ما صنع الهوى
بليت بداء ليس يشفيه الدواء
رماني غزال اهيف بجماله
فجارت سهام القتل من جانب الدواء
فرحت لقاضي العشق احكي قصتي
ليحكم بيني وبين احبابي بالسوا
فأجابني قاضي الغرام وقال لي يا فتى
كم من قتيل قد مات قهر في الهوى
أنا قاضي العشق والعشق قاتلي
وقاضي قضاة العشق قاتله الهوى​
And here's the closest translation of it, yet not as good as the above of course [I'd really like to know if there's any other better translations]:

If I had two hearts I would have used one
And left the other to be tortured by your love

But i only have one owned by affection
Which rejects life and is not asking for death

Like a bird in a child's hand
Tasting a hint of death while the child is just fooling around

Neither the child is aware of what he’s doing
Nor the bird is capable of flying


I who left my faith to god in the name of love
Got a syndrome with no remedy

And a graceful deer took a shot of beauty at me
The arrows of lethal beauty swift near my remedy

And so I went to the judge of love to tell my story
To judge between me and my lover with just

He answered me and said: son how many have died awfully out of love
I am the judge of love and love is killing me

While love is who murdered the judge of judges!
 
  • #15
Here's a translation of an Urdu poem by Faiz to English by Vikram Seth. It's almost as good as the original. But then Seth is an accomplished poet in his own right.

रात यूं दिल में तेरी खोयी हुई याद आई
जैसे वीराने में चुपके से बहार आ जाए
जैसे सहराओं में हौले से चले बाद -इ -नसीम
जैसे बीमार को बे -वजह करार आ जाए

Last night your faded memory came to me
As in the wilderness spring comes quietly,
As, slowly, in the desert, moves the breeze,
As, to a sick man, without cause, comes peace.
 
  • #16
I'm almost certain that poets require underdefined words and concepts (which happen to be the hardest to translate) to lend their poems poignancy. That is, the abstraction each person uses to personally define certain words or ideas gives the poem its feeling. Then, across culture and language, person to person even, certainly the feelings evoked will change.

Then again, I'm almost certain I'm not making any sense.
 
  • #17
drizzle said:
One of Majnun Lyla's poems, so nice to share, here is the original text:

And here's the closest translation of it, yet not as good as the above of course [I'd really like to know if there's any other better translations]:

At the risk of doing an insult to a beautiful work of art, I excerpt just one wonderful, perfect line:

a graceful deer took a shot of beauty at me
 
  • #18
Poetry sucks. Just my opinion.
 
  • #19
drizzle said:
Heh, funny it reminds me of some amazing arabic poems I've read, and turned out the poets are Persian.

You mean they wrote in Arabic? I am not absolutely sure, but for a long time after the Arab invasion of Iran, wasn't the Persian language largely suppressed, later to be revived? I think they spoke Persian as the court language at some point in the Moghul empire over this period, however. So I am guessing the arabic language would have been spoken by most Iranians, it certainly has a lot of Arabic words in the language today.

I think the main issue with translating poetry is the metre, etc. Poetry, at least in English, and also in Latin and Greek (I'm guessing), makes use of the rhythm of the language; I'm guessing you'd be hard pushed to translate a poem such that it conveys the same meaning and retains a rhythm of any sort, much less one that's supposed to compliment the words.
 
  • #20
nobahar said:
You mean they wrote in Arabic?

Yes they do. I've read their biographies, most of Persian poets who wrote in Arabic grew up and lived among the Arabs.
 
  • #21
Persian was the original language before arab conquest. After the conquest persian was written in arabic script -

Following the collapse of the Sassanid state, Parsik came to be applied exclusively to (either Middle or New) Persian that was written in Arabic script. From about the 9th century onwards, as Middle Persian was on the threshold of becoming New Persian, the older form of the language came to be erroneously called Pahlavi, which was actually but one of the writing systems used to render both Middle Persian as well as various other Middle Iranian languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language#New_Persian
 
  • #22
I wonder if Robert Frost would translate well... He's one of my favorite poets.

The Road Not Taken

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
 
  • #23
A translation is like a mistress, either beautiful and unfaithful, or faithful and not beautiful.

(Translated from the Russian)
 
  • #24
ThomasT said:
Poetry sucks. Just my opinion.
Someone's stretching his fledgling wings... :rolleyes:

My kids went through a phase where everything "sucked".
 
  • #25
turbo said:
I wonder if Robert Frost would translate well... He's one of my favorite poets.

The Road Not Taken

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Beautiful.

Vanadium 50 said:
A translation is like a mistress, either beautiful and unfaithful, or faithful and not beautiful.

(Translated from the Russian)

Haha, nice.
 
  • #26
thorium1010 said:
Persian was the original language before arab conquest. After the conquest persian was written in arabic script -



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language#New_Persian

Indeed, in a modified form. As far as I am aware, Arabic doesn't have a 'p' sound (maybe Drizzle can verify this :) ). Persian does and has a modified Arabic letter to denote it. I am pretty sure this is also the reason why Parsi is often called Farsi (Parsi/Farsi being the word for the Persian language).
 
  • #27
nobahar said:
Indeed, in a modified form. As far as I am aware, Arabic doesn't have a 'p' sound (maybe Drizzle can verify this :) ). Persian does and has a modified Arabic letter to denote it. I am pretty sure this is also the reason why Parsi is often called Farsi (Parsi/Farsi being the word for the Persian language).

Nor the 'v' sound... But it is worth to note that this is not about 'what's the original language'. Besides Persian language has no influence in the Arabic language by any means. It is simply a different language. :)

Let's just stick to the topic. Thanks.
 
  • #28
Poetry or prose, there is a huge loss in translation. Many words have no precise translation. Cultural mores, differences in what makes something funny, the emotions created by the original can't be recreated in another language. This doesn't mean there aren't excellent translations - there are. But they are far from equivalent.

My first real experience with this after Chaucer, was a poem in Russian called Song of the Falcon. It just wasn't the same in English and this realization made a huge impact on me. Later when living in a Spanish speaking country the inability to truly translate anything to a precise equivalent was obvious. Humor is quite difficult, almost impossible in many cases. And if you want a fall on the floor laughing experience, watch the Dukes of Hazard dubbed in Spanish. It was sooooo bad.

Two things I would wish for everyone - the opportunity to live in a different culture long enough to really feel it and the ability to speak and read another language well enough to appreciate its beauty and humor.

I would love to be able to read the Songs of Solomon in the original language.
 
  • #29
netgypsy said:
Humor is quite difficult, almost impossible in many cases. And if you want a fall on the floor laughing experience, watch the Dukes of Hazard dubbed in Spanish. It was sooooo bad.

I couldn't agree more. :biggrin:


Beautiful post netgypsy, thank you. :smile:
 
  • #30
One interesting note - I remember reading "Heart of Darkness" by Joseph Conrad. Absolutely gorgeous, picture painting, prose. He was second language English. So sometimes people who learn a language later have a much greater appreciation for its nuances than do those who have spoken it from birth.
 
  • #31
Vanadium 50 said:
A translation is like a mistress, either beautiful and unfaithful, or faithful and not beautiful.

(Translated from the Russian)

So true!:biggrin:
 
  • #32
Andre said:
Yes let's try this famous poem
Le Corbeau et le Renard by Jean de LA FONTAINE (1621-1695)

My effort, preserving most of the rhyming pattern:

Mr Crow, perched in a tree,
Had in his beak a lovely cheese
Mr Fox, by the smell attracted,
Spoke to him with words like these:
"Mister Crow, how do you do!
How fine you are! I'm stunned by you!

Sing! for if your song is able
To rival your splendid coat of sable,

You are the phoenix of these trees."
On hearing this, the Crow, so pleased,
Anxious this fine chance to seize,
Opened wide, and dropped the cheese!

The Fox left with it, saying: "Dear Sir,
You've learned that every flatterer
Lives at the expense of flatterees:
That lesson was well worth a cheese!"

The Crow was full of shame, and lost for words,
And learned that foxes please themselves, not birds. :smile:

© tiny-tim 2012​
 
  • #33
Nice tiny :)
 
  • #34
Nice thread btw drizzle :).

Here is my poem I am currently working on for my English poetry assignment.

Its by Robert Frost: The Rhodora (i underlined it cause I'm afraid my english teacher to actually read this and take off points for not underlining the title :rofl:.

Robert Frost - The Rhodora

On being asked, Whence is the flower?

In May, when sea-winds pierced our solitudes,
I found the fresh Rhodora in the woods,
Spreading its leafless blooms in a damp nook,
To please the desert and the sluggish brook.
The purple petals, fallen in the pool,
Made the black water with their beauty gay;
Here might the red-bird come his plumes to cool,
And court the flower that cheapens his array.
Rhodora! if the sages ask thee why
This charm is wasted on the Earth and sky,
Tell them, dear, that if eyes were made for seeing,
Then Beauty is its own excuse for being:
Why thou wert there, O rival of the rose!
I never thought to ask, I never knew:
But, in my simple ignorance, suppose
The self-same Power that brought me there brought you.

nice poem actually kind of like it :)
 
  • #35
tiny-tim I love your version. It's both musical and true to its essence. Could we say the mistress is the wife?

Person who say he hates poetry does not yet know her, nor has he seen her unadorned beauty and wit.

Clothe her with music, call her a song and suddenly she has many new admirers.poem
"My Cousin Fred"

He came, he saw, he trashed my room,
He pushed, he shoved, he broke a broom!
He sniffed, he snarled, I stood stock still,
He biffed, he bashed, my drink did spill!

He mumbled, he grumbled, he kicked my door,
He grunted, he groaned, he stamped on the floor!
He's evil, he's mean, but I like him this way,
It's funny when my cousin Fred comes to stay!

He's trouble, he's bad, but it works out for me,
His thrashing and bashing just fills me with glee!
As my mum and dad think that Fred's the bad egg,
So I can be naughty and blame him instead!

©2003 Gareth Lancaster


song

Grandma Got Run Over By A Reindeer

Grandma got run over by a reindeer
Walking home from our house Christmas eve
You can say there's no such thing as Santa
But as for me and Grandpa, we believe

She'd been drinkin' too much egg nog
And we'd begged her not to go
But she'd left her medication
So she stumbled out the door into the snow

When they found her Christmas mornin'
At the scene of the attack
There were hoof prints on her forehead
And incriminatin' Claus marks on her back

Grandma got run over by a reindeer
Walkin' home from our house Christmas eve
You can say there's no such thing as Santa
But as for me and Grandpa, we believe

Now were all so proud of Grandpa
He's been takin' this so well
See him in there watchin' football
Drinkin' beer and playin' cards with cousin Belle

It's not Christmas without Grandma
All the family's dressed in black
And we just can't help but wonder
Should we open up her gifts or send them back?

Grandma got run over by a reindeer
Walkin' home from our house Christmas eve
You can say there's no such thing as Santa
But as for me and Grandpa, we believe

Now the goose is on the table
And the pudding made of pig
And a blue and silver candle
That would just have matched the hair in Grandma's wig

I've warned all my friends and neighbors
Better watch out for yourselves
They should never give a license
To a man who drives a sleigh and plays with elves

Grandma got run over by a reindeer
Walkin' home from our house, Christmas eve
You can say there's no such thing as Santa
But as for me and Grandpa, we believe!The Classic Grandma Got Run Over By A Reindeer Song by:

Elmo & Patsy Elmo & Patsy - Grandma Got Run Over By a Reindeer



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<h2>1. What is the purpose of translating poetry?</h2><p>The purpose of translating poetry is to make the original work accessible to a wider audience. It allows for the expression of different cultures, perspectives, and ideas to be shared and appreciated by people who may not speak the same language.</p><h2>2. Can poetry be accurately translated?</h2><p>Translating poetry can be a challenging task as it involves capturing not just the literal meaning of the words, but also the emotions, rhythm, and cultural nuances of the original work. While it may not be possible to have a perfect translation, skilled translators can convey the essence and beauty of the original poem.</p><h2>3. Is the soul of the poem lost in translation?</h2><p>There is a common belief that the soul of a poem can be lost in translation. However, while the exact words and expressions may change, the essence and message of the poem can still be conveyed through translation. It is important for translators to understand the cultural context and use their creativity to preserve the soul of the poem.</p><h2>4. How does the translator's interpretation affect the translation of a poem?</h2><p>The translator's interpretation can greatly impact the translation of a poem. Every translator brings their own perspective and understanding to the work, which can influence the way they choose to convey the meaning and emotions of the poem. This is why it is important for translators to have a deep understanding of the original language and culture.</p><h2>5. Can a translated poem be considered a new work of art?</h2><p>Some may argue that a translated poem is a new work of art, as it is a creation that did not exist in its current form before. However, others may argue that the original poem remains the true work of art and the translation is simply a representation of it. Ultimately, the interpretation of a translated poem as a new work of art is subjective and can vary from person to person.</p>

1. What is the purpose of translating poetry?

The purpose of translating poetry is to make the original work accessible to a wider audience. It allows for the expression of different cultures, perspectives, and ideas to be shared and appreciated by people who may not speak the same language.

2. Can poetry be accurately translated?

Translating poetry can be a challenging task as it involves capturing not just the literal meaning of the words, but also the emotions, rhythm, and cultural nuances of the original work. While it may not be possible to have a perfect translation, skilled translators can convey the essence and beauty of the original poem.

3. Is the soul of the poem lost in translation?

There is a common belief that the soul of a poem can be lost in translation. However, while the exact words and expressions may change, the essence and message of the poem can still be conveyed through translation. It is important for translators to understand the cultural context and use their creativity to preserve the soul of the poem.

4. How does the translator's interpretation affect the translation of a poem?

The translator's interpretation can greatly impact the translation of a poem. Every translator brings their own perspective and understanding to the work, which can influence the way they choose to convey the meaning and emotions of the poem. This is why it is important for translators to have a deep understanding of the original language and culture.

5. Can a translated poem be considered a new work of art?

Some may argue that a translated poem is a new work of art, as it is a creation that did not exist in its current form before. However, others may argue that the original poem remains the true work of art and the translation is simply a representation of it. Ultimately, the interpretation of a translated poem as a new work of art is subjective and can vary from person to person.

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