News Troubling Coverage of the Fort Hood Shootings

[arildno]

I'm not so sure that's true. As an officer, your first two promotions are scheduled - essentially guaranteed. They happen automatically unless there is an extreme reason to deny them to you. Your third promotion (to major) is not guaranteed, but happens at a particular time. Every 6 months or a year (can't remember which), batches of eligible candidates are promoted. If the needs of the military and availiability of candiates in your field are right for you, you may get promoted with less than stellar performance evaluations.

That is, assuming such complaints even made it into his performace evauations!

By the way - that's April 2008, not 2009. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572509,00.html

What IS odd, is that he was evidently under some sort of supervision since at least March 2009, on account of disturbing personality tendencies.

I would have thought that as an officer, security clearances to serve in action would be particularly strict.

Thus, unless he just recently received some sort of dismissal from active duty in Afghanistan, it seems odd that the military seriously considered him as viable personell in a high-risk situation exacerbated, possibly, with uncertainties as to where his loyalty would be.


Perhaps he just prior to the massacre was informed that he was ineligible for duty, and that enraged, he took revenge?

Not that this motive need to have been unconnected from additional Islamic extremist views..

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Im actually having fun reading his comments.

Arildno is entertaining when he gets haughty.

I had a bit too European angle on this, where Christian extremism is largely confined to Northern Ireland.

Do you think that cultural/national enmity from so many different countries so close together sort of masks or dilutes the sort of racial and religious extremism we see here in the US having a large homogeneous culture? It has always seemed to me that cultural/national rivalry is probably a much more prevalent (and perhaps more acceptable) outlet for such tendencies in Europe, assuming that some people simply have a psychological need to be zenophobic or elitist.

 

[Vanadium 50]

As an officer, your first two promotions are scheduled - essentially guaranteed. They happen automatically unless there is an extreme reason to deny them to you.

I knew a guy who spent six years as an O-1. The military came to the conclusion that the best service he could provide would be to serve as a negative example to others.

Your third promotion (to major) is not guaranteed, but happens at a particular time. Every 6 months or a year (can't remember which), batches of eligible candidates are promoted. If the needs of the military and availiability of candiates in your field are right for you, you may get promoted with less than stellar performance evaluations.

The situation here is a little different. Hasan was a medical doctor, which means he was commissioned an O-3. Above O-3 promotions are not guaranteed, but if you are passed over too often, you have to separate or retire. The effect of that is that officers who are less than stellar but not bad enough to fire get promoted.

 

[mheslep]

...Name-calling is just one manifestation of harrassment. Hasan was a major, but presumably he started at a lower rank and moved up to major.

A doctor starts out as a Captain or equivalent in the service.

During his time in the military, he was harrassed, and apparently after 9/11/01, the harrassment was primarily because he was Muslim.

We only have Hasan's assertion that he was harassed.

 

[mheslep]

The Washington Post has a biography of Maj. Hasan here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/06/AR2009110601978.html

1. Apparently, he got his promotion to Major in May 2009 (as a reward for his work as a Task Force Participant??)

While promotion to Major is not automatic per policy, it is essentially unwritten policy to automatically promote to Major in most Army branches (USMC is different), unless there's some significant black mark on the record, a clearly demonstrable under performance of some kind. In fact, it's likely Hasan's CO would have undergone scrutiny for NOT passing him forward. The real merit based promotions don't start until Lt Colonel in the Army.

 

[mheslep]

I knew a guy who spent six years as an O-1. The military came to the conclusion that the best service he could provide would be to serve as a negative example to others.

That is extremely odd. Generally the rule is two pass overs at review time and it is pack your bags time.

 

[arildno]

Arildno is entertaining when he gets haughty.


Do you think that cultural/national enmity from so many different countries so close together sort of masks or dilutes the sort of racial and religious extremism we see here in the US having a large homogeneous culture? It has always seemed to me that cultural/national rivalry is probably a much more prevalent (and perhaps more acceptable) outlet for such tendencies in Europe, assuming that some people simply have a psychological need to be zenophobic or elitist.

Possibly.

On the other hand, I think that the relative prevalence of "extremist congregrations" in the US, compared to Europe has much to do with that in a sense, such congregations are more "viable" in the US, due to a couple of structural reasons:

1. The welfare state
In most European countries, we pay charity by means of our tax bill, rather than through private channels. Thus, one of the pillars upon which the respectability of the faith communities rests in the US (and for that matter, the network of mosques in Islamic countries) has become undermined.
Whereas in the US, charity as organized through the local churches is one of the MAJOR ways in which people get an outlet for their altruism, Europeans think they have done enough by paying their taxes instead. The church is NOT in Europe, "a community of The Good", rather, it is primarily "a community of The Believers", and that's a difference.

Thus, extremely conservative church communities may well gain respectability in the US by being sincerely devoted to charitable issues, whereas that won't happen here in Europe.

2. State Church, and state funding
a) In Europe, the church hierarchy is STRONG, and receives a lot of funding from the state.
Through that mechanism, secular politicians have a handle on what the church's policy "ought to be". In Norway, for example, bishops have been installed because they were liberal with respect to gay/lesbian issues, more than out of "clerical merits".
Thus, contemporary ideas may gain ground faster in religious establishment institutions in Europe than in large communities in the US (there, new ideas will be the hallmark of "fledgling communities", who will try to carve out a new niche in the marketplace of faith communities)

b) To take the case of Norway, non-establishment faith communities get state funding, roughly in accordance with numbers of members.
Since people dread to lose what they've already got, the presence of state funding might well make some communities loath at developing a confrontational reactionary stance towards the "benevolent" Mother State, in fear of having those money withdrawn.

c) Since most faith communities DO get means from the State, why should individuals bother to pay for the maintenance of a particular faith community?
One joins, instead, a community that provides its religious services "for free", and where the individual member is NOT called upon to make donations.
And thus, extremist groups might not evolve away from the single, fringe lunatic into a full-blown extremist community.

 

[Sorry!]

I don't think that this individual had any motive to create terror within the public at all... From everything I've read about him he just seemed like a very angry indiviudal mad at life and the things he was going to have to do. So what?

If the media starts to portray him as a terrorist then I think that'll be more of the MEDIA doing the terrorizing than anything. I'm certain people thinking terrorist are organizing attacks against American troops on American soil right in their own bases is pretty frightening, espeically when it's uneccessary.

 

[Evo]

Some new information.

Muslim leader had troubling talks with suspect

A former classmate has said Hasan was a "vociferous opponent of the war" and "viewed the war against terror" as a "war against Islam." Dr. Val Finnell, who attended a master's in public health program in 2007-2008 at Uniformed Services University with Hasan, said he told classmates he was "a Muslim first and an American second."

"In retrospect, I'm not surprised he did it," Finnell said. "I had real questions about what his priorities were, what his beliefs were."

Osman Danquah, co-founder of the Islamic Community of Greater Killeen, said he was disturbed by Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan's persistent questioning and recommended the mosque reject Hasan's request to become a lay Muslim leader at the sprawling Army post.

Danquah said Hasan never expressed anger toward the Army or indicated any plans for violence, but during the second of two conversations they had over the summer, Hasan seemed almost incoherent, he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091107/ap_on_re_us/us_fort_hood_shooting;_ylt=AuIbOKJ6JMq.ud2UnacYU3RTsa8F;_ylu=X3oDMTNhZTdzN2N1BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkxMTA3L3VzX2ZvcnRfaG9vZF9zaG9vdGluZwRjY29kZQNtb3N0cG9wdWxhcgRjcG9zAzIEcG9zAzIEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yaWVzBHNsawNtdXNsaW1sZWFkZXI-

 

[arildno]

I don't think that this individual had any motive to create terror within the public at all... From everything I've read about him he just seemed like a very angry indiviudal mad at life and the things he was going to have to do. So what?

So that's why he shouted "Allahu Akbar" during his rampage?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

The situation here is a little different. Hasan was a medical doctor, which means he was commissioned an O-3. Above O-3 promotions are not guaranteed, but if you are passed over too often, you have to separate or retire. The effect of that is that officers who are less than stellar but not bad enough to fire get promoted.

I heard that Hasan reached major in a relatively short time frame, that he was "fast tracked" to his most recent career position. So while he may have suffered social disadvantage his career options were apparently never impeded, or at least not greatly impeded.

It makes me wonder that if occupational stressors were a factor perhaps those in noncombat positions are not sufficiently prepared for the stress of "front line" duty. From my limited second hand knowledge of military training 'grunts' and combat units are generally screened, tested, and 'broken' before they reach a front line post severely reducing incidence of team nonintegration and insubordinate/antisocial behavior.

 

[rootX]

So that's why he shouted "Allahu Akbar" during his rampage?

He could have done much bigger damage very easily. He looks more like a troubled American who found himself to be alienated than someone who had intial motives of harming America.

I saw his picture in the newspaper wearing Islamic dress. Maybe now they should put restriction that religious people cannot serve. It is very a complicated problem which cannot be solved by alienating/terminating the cause IMO.

Edit: And, are you indicating that all people who shout "Allahu Akbar" are terrorists?
Because Sorry! only said the following:

I don't think that this individual had any motive to create terror within the public at all... From everything I've read about him he just seemed like a very angry indiviudal mad at life and the things he was going to have to do. So what?

 

[DanP]

So that's why he shouted "Allahu Akbar" during his rampage?

An interjection like "Allah is the greatest" doesn't automatically indicates premeditated terrorist intentions.
It also doesn't offer any evidence against the hypothesis of premeditated terror act.

For all we know, it can be used much in the way Christians use "may god help me" , used to reinforce the perpetrator's courage and in several other ways. You can only speculate what he meant with the interjection.

 

[arildno]

An interjection like "Allah is the greatest" doesn't automatically indicates premeditated terrorist intentions.
It also doesn't offer any evidence against the hypothesis of premeditated terror act. .

Well, it has been the standard war-cry of Muslims against the armies of infidels since the 7th century, so it DOES have a certain tradition..

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

An interjection like "Allah is the greatest" doesn't automatically indicates premeditated terrorist intentions.
It also doesn't offer any evidence against the hypothesis of premeditated terror act.

For all we know, it can be used much in the way Christians use "may god help me" , used to reinforce the perpetrator's courage and in several other ways. You can only speculate what he meant with the interjection.

I think that the added fact that Hasan had supposedly indicated admiration and moral support for 'muslim martyrs' before emulating them could easily create the impression that he intended a similar intention behind his attack.

edit: it seems a logical deduction to me anyway.

 

[DanP]

Well, it has been the standard war-cry of Muslims against the armies of infidels since the 7th century, so it DOES have a certain tradition..

Yes, but it is also used with a lot of other sense, besides being used as a battle cry. It is used to express deep feelings, approval in many situations, and used during Muslim prayers if I recall correctly. For all I know, usage in prayers may very well be anterior to usage as a battle-cry.

Christians use similar catch phrases involving god in prayers, to express relief, pain and so on.

Even as battle-crys. I can very well imagine "milites Christi" shouting from the top of their lungs "In the name of the God..." charging towards Jerusalim walls.

 

[DanP]

I think that the added fact that Hasan had supposedly indicated admiration and moral support for 'muslim martyrs' before emulating them could easily create the impression that he intended a similar intention behind his attack.

edit: it seems a logical deduction to me anyway.

Yes, facts which support an hypothesis or another do add up. We will know soon.

 

[arildno]

As for the usage of the Takbir (i.e, the phrase "Allahu Akbar) as a battle cry, see for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_cry

Of course, usage of the Takbir is commonplace among Muslims, to convey a variety of meanings, for example joy or approval, or when experiencing great relief.
It is also the obligatory introductory words of all Islamic prayers.

However, given the situation Hasan was in, to think his "Allahu Akbar" expressed approval or relief is rather unlikely.

Since it happens to be a favoured cry by suicide bombers, who Nidal Hasan evidently admired, AND that he could expect to be killed during his carnage, it seems most likely to me that he fancied himself to be on a holy mission, desiring to become a martyr, affirming his allegiance to his God by saying the Takbir.

 

[DanP]

Since it happens to be a favoured cry by suicide bombers, who Nidal Hasan evidently admired, AND that he could expect to be killed during his carnage, it seems most likely to me that he fancied himself to be on a holy mission, desiring to become a martyr, affirming his allegiance to his God by saying the Takbir.

Quite possibly, but was it a premeditated terror act or he just "lost it" as so many other killers who went berserk and started shooting random ppl at their work place or in their schools ?

Since Takbir has a a great significance for Muslims, I find likely he would use it either as a "battle-cry", either as a mean to reinforce his courage in both cases.

 

[arildno]

Quite possibly, but was it a premeditated terror act or he just "lost it" as so many other killers who went berserk and started shooting random ppl at their work place or in their schools ?

Depends upon what you mean by pre-meditation.

Clearly, SOME pre-meditation had occurred:

1. According to this article,

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33737596/ns/us_news-tragedy_at_fort_hood/

Nidal Hasan made his goodbyes to neighbours, dealing out, amongst other things, Qurans, for example:
"
Jacqueline Harris, 44, who lives with her boyfriend Willie Bell in the apartment next door to Hasan, said he called Thursday at 5 a.m. and left a message.

"He just wanted to thank Willie for being a good friend and thank him for being there for him," Harris said. "That was it. We thought it was just a nice message to leave."

Bell said Hasan offered a farewell, saying "nice knowing you old friend. I'm going to miss you."

2. Usually, he attended his mosque in the morning prayers in military garb; however, on the morning of the massacre, he had dressed in full Islamic garb, according to the Imam there:
"Imam Syed Ahmed Ali said Major Nidal Malik Hasan usually worn his uniform or civilian clothes to prayers, but on Thursday, he attended in his full robe."
See:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572827,00.html

It should be noted that it is USUAL for Islamic suicide bombers to go to their mission in a "pure state", i.e, so that they can stand pure before their God after their mission.
To make the ablutions, to shave the beard and to have clean, wholesome clothes on are some of the preparatory rituals noted of many Islamic "martyrs".

 

[OmCheeto]

And, are you indicating that all people who shout "Allahu Akbar" are terrorists?

I once asked someone a few years ago what "Allahu Akbar" meant.
He said "duck*".

*duck: to lower ones head or body to avoid a blow

Other http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2009/11/20091173493878909.html" :

Deployment fears

Hasan's cousin told the New York Times newspaper that Hasan had retained a lawyer and sought to get out of the army before the end of his contract.

...

Fort Hood personnel have accounted for more suicides than any other army post since the US invasion of Iraq in 2003, with 75 tallied through July of this year.

Contrary to what people might think, military life can sometimes be very stressful, and lead to incomprehensible acts.

 

[arildno]

once asked someone a few years ago what "Allahu Akbar" meant.
He said "duck*".

Or, in general, when something looks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks like a duck then there is, at the very least, a non-negative probability that it IS a duck.

 

[mheslep]

I once asked someone a few years ago what "Allahu Akbar" meant.
He said "duck*".

*duck: to lower ones head or body to avoid a blow

Other http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2009/11/20091173493878909.html" :



Contrary to what people might think, military life can sometimes be very stressful, and lead to incomprehensible acts.

Contrary to what you might think, the US military has a lower suicide rate than the public at large.

 

[arildno]

Contrary to what people might think, military life can sometimes be very stressful,

Who are these people you castigate??
I don't know of anyone who thinks military life cannot be stressful.

and lead to incomprehensible acts.

Why should unspecified stress lead to "incomprehensible" acts?

 

[OmCheeto]

Contrary to what you might think, the US military has a lower suicide rate than the public at large.

Maybe the last time you checked it was:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/157916.php
18 Jul 2009

Suicide is the fourth leading cause of death among 25- to 44-year-olds in the United States. Historically, the suicide rate has been lower in the military than among civilians. In 2008 that pattern was reversed, with the suicide rate in the Army exceeding the age-adjusted rate in the civilian population (20.2 out of 100,000 vs. 19.2).

Though the difference is insignificant enough for my point to be irrelevant.

Those in the military are just as human as everyone else I guess.

 

[arildno]

Interesting, OmCheeto!

While one hypothesis A) might be that recent years have seen much military action, presumably leading to more emotional stress, and hence, possibly, an increased rate of suicides, another hypothesis B) might be:
There has been a slackening in standards of psychological profiling, so that potential suicides that were weeded out previously are now enrolled.

If A) is the correct explanation (or, at least, a dominant factor), then one should find a pattern of increased suicides in similar times before when the stress levels were as high, or higher than they are today.

 

[OmCheeto]

Why should unspecified stress lead to "incomprehensible" acts?

Why? Because it does, that's why.

http://www.medicinenet.com/stress/page3.htm#symptoms
Excess stress can manifest itself in a variety of emotional, behavioral, and even physical symptoms, and the symptoms of stress vary enormously among different individuals.

 

[arildno]

Particular types of stress might, indeed, lead to "incomprehsible acts", but for stresses of an unspecified nature?

Not too sure about that..

 

[OmCheeto]

Interesting, OmCheeto!

While one hypothesis A) might be that recent years have seen much military action, presumably leading to more emotional stress, and hence, possibly, an increased rate of suicides, another hypothesis B) might be:
There has been a slackening in standards of psychological profiling, so that potential suicides that were weeded out previously are now enrolled.

If A) is the correct explanation (or, at least, a dominant factor), then one should find a pattern of increased suicides in similar times before when the stress levels were as high, or higher than they are today.

I don't understand. I've already pointed out that a 1 in 100,000 rate difference in suicide is insignificant. Why are you insisting on beating a dead horse?

 

[arildno]

Not insisting at all. Just typed that message at the spur of the moment.
Since you are right in the higher suicide risk for military personell relative to the civilians being statistically insignificant we might forget it.

However, it still doesn't explain that previously, there was as I understand a significantly reduced risk for military personell in terms of suicide, but that now, the rates are for all purposes equal.