News Troubling Coverage of the Fort Hood Shootings

[arildno]

The Washington Post has a biography of Maj. Hasan here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/06/AR2009110601978.html

1. Apparently, he got his promotion to Major in May 2009 (as a reward for his work as a Task Force Participant??)

2. He was transferred to Fort Hood THIS summer.

Thus, IF he was harassed, it is more likely that this is closely related to the situation at Fort Hood, and that he didn't manage to fit in on his new place of work.
He had recently reached the level of Major, so any long harassment history seems very unlikely, IMO.


A better hypothesis along the same line would be feelings of inadequacy in his NEW role as Major at a totally new (and hostile?) workplace.

Not that this hypothesis needs to be true, either.

 

[russ_watters]

Intellectual honesty. A news service is supposed to report the news.

While that really is the reason I started the thread, a much more serioius implication just occurred to me:

Perhaps the cause of the media's aversion to engaging the issue of Islamic extremism is related to the military's apparent failure to properly engage the issue of Islamic extremism here! Perhaps the PC culture (if that is what is causing it) that has the media ignoring the issue is also what caused the military to fail to react to the warning signs Hasan gave them.

 

[russ_watters]

Not quite. Lisa is disputing one's assertions.

Who's assertions? Mine? I never made such assertions as Lisa is disputing. That's kinda my point! She's reading something I didn't say! If you disagree, please quote where I said or implied the type of generalization she is implying.

PTSD is one possible response to a traumatic (T) event. To what traumatic events Hasan was exposed, we do not know. One does not have to be in combat to experience PTSD or similar stress disorder.

That's all fine, Astronuc. What I am asking is why the media is putting so much emphasis on that theory and so little on the plain, ordinary, Islamic extremist theory - one that has real evidence to support it?

Name-calling is just one manifestation of harrassment. Hasan was a major, but presumably he started at a lower rank and moved up to major. During his time in the military, he was harrassed, and apparently after 9/11/01, the harrassment was primarily because he was Muslim.

That's fine too, Astronuc (though you characterize it differently from what I have read...) and if it is true that he was pushed over the edge by harassment, it's still an Islamic extremist motive! The discussion could then be about: could harassing a person because of perceived Islamic extremism turn a person into an Islamic extremist? That would be an interesting discussion!

But again, the point is they aren't having the discussion.

It could be a case that Hasan just lost it. Why? We don't know.

Yes, another possibility. That possibility is also not being ignored by the media.

We do know that he was apparently a devout Muslim. He was apparently socially isolated. He was apparently distressed about his deployment. He was apparently angry to the point of rage where he lost control. That does not make his action terrorism.

I guess we'll have to define "terrorism", Astronuc, because it seems to fit the definition to me. That's less important to me than the discussion of the issue, though. Again, my point is: Why are all of those other possibilities being given so much more play than this one?

 

[DanP]

Uh huh... so your powers of critical thinking don't lead you in any particular direction?

We're not in kindergarden. Thinking people can look at evidence and form opinions.

Yes, but press is not the best way for anyone to get the data.

So unless you have data derived directly from the criminal investigation and not CNN/ whatever the best course for now is not to jump at conclusions. It may be terrorism. It may be another thing. We don't know. At least not yet.

 

[arildno]

1. As for "devoutness", the Washington Post article has the following relevant info:
"Attended the Muslim Community Center in Silver Spring and is devout, according to Faizul Khan, former imam at the center. Attended prayers at least once a day, seven days a week, often in his Army fatigues, Khan said.
"

2. As possible stressful prospect:
" Was awaiting deployment to Afghanistan, which was to be his first Army service overseas"

 

[DanP]

...) and if it is true that he was pushed over the edge by harassment, it's still an Islamic extremist motive! The discussion could then be about: could harassing a person because of perceived Islamic extremism turn a person into an Islamic extremist? That would be an interesting discussion!

And if a man cracks under harassment and goes berserk killing his brethren, and this man happens to be a christian, we do have then a "Christian extremist motive" ? What is the determinant factor ? Religion or harassment ?

 

[arildno]

Yes, but press is not the best way for anyone to get the data.
So unless you have data derived directly from the criminal investigation and not CNN/ whatever the best course for now is not to jump at conclusions.

a) It is the MEDIA that has jumped to conclusions, namely that "this have absolutely nothing to do with Islam, nothing to do with extremism, he was BULLIED, HARASSED, and his parents were dead.

b) Data provided by the media need not be inaccurate, and can be used, in a rational manner, to construct a probability distribution model over possible motives, obviously sensitive to further information gathering.

 

[arildno]

And if a man cracks under harassment and goes berserk killing his brethren, and this man happens to be a christian, we do have then a "Christian extremist motive" ? What is the determinant factor ? Religion or harassment ?

How many Christian terrorist organizations do you know of?

Attempted and executed terrorist plots?

Compare that to the number of muslim terrorist activities, and try to achieve the rational conclusion that while the Nidal Hasan event might well be an Islamic extremist action, whereas in the case of this fantasy Christian individual of yours it would be extremely UNLIKELY that it was Christian extremism behind it (unless it takes place in say, Congo, Southern Sudan or Northern Ireland, where that hypothesis has some plausibility).

 

[DanP]

a) It is the MEDIA that has jumped to conclusions, namely that "this have absolutely nothing to do with Islam, nothing to do with extremism, he was BULLIED, HARASSED, and his parents were dead.

Media is driven by money. Theyll do anything for better ratings , and in some cases even to manipul;ate masses according with political view of divisional factors.

I any even, even if the coverage is "sensationalistic" there is no need to fall in the other extreme and prefer "terrorist" coverages

b) Data provided by the media need not be inaccurate, and can be used, in a rational manner, to construct a probability distribution model over possible motives, obviously sensitive to further information gathering.[/QUOTE]

Key words "need not be inaccurate" also , need not to be accurate
Key words "further information gathering".

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

It could be a case that Hasan just lost it. Why? We don't know. We do know that he was apparently a devout Muslim. He was apparently socially isolated. He was apparently distressed about his deployment. He was apparently angry to the point of rage where he lost control. That does not make his action terrorism.

It seems to me that people often try to find rationalizations for their aggressive and antisocial feelings when they are stressed or emotionally disturbed. As already noted we can likely consider most violent extremists to be mentally or emotionally imbalanced. Many terrorists, muslim or otherwise, have most likely experienced some loss or stress which has influenced them to follow the path they have chosen. Evidence would seem to indicate that Hasan was making similar rationalizations for apparent antisocial attitudes. The theory that he was suffering from some sort of stress and lost control does not preclude a desire to commit a terrorist act against the people whom he apparently saw as the source of his emotional disturbance.

Some people are concerned that PC attitudes made Hasan's colleagues reticent to report and act on apparent warning signs of his break down. So many of these people also feel that the general lack of attention by the media to these warning signs, categorizing the attack as a sudden and inexplicable mental break down, is further evidence that PC attitudes are preventing people from attending the obvious.

 

[russ_watters]

While I have allueded to what I think his motivation was, I haven't directly explained it. Here it is (note, this is a mixture of the known facts and speculation about motive):

Hasan was born in the US to Palestinian (note: I'm not sure what is actually meant by "Palestinian", since there is no such country) parents, both now dead. He is a devout Muslim. Joining the US military for reasons I can only imagine, he spends most of his time in school where the reality of what the US military is about doesn't need to concern him. After 9/11, things become much more real for him. Osama Bin Laden states that he is engaged in nothing less than a holy war between Islam and the West. As a devout Muslim, this troubles Hasan. He doesn't want a holy war and doesn't want the US military being active against Muslims.

Then troops start coming back from overseas - troops who have heard and responded to rhetoric from both sides about this being a holy war - troops who'se feelings have been amplified by being shot at. It is Hasan's job to counsel these men. Instead he engages them in debate about the rightousness of their actions. They get fired up, he gets fired up. He starts posting on internet forums, showing sympathy toward the 9/11 terrorists and using other increasingly elevated ant-US rhetoric. He wants out of the army, but can't leave because his years of army provided schooling require years of service to pay for it.

His performace as an officer in the US Army and counselor suffers. He receives bad performance evaluations. The Army needs warm bodies and doesn't want to separate him. His CO doesn't want to be seen as anti-Muslim. His CO does the expedient thing: he transfers him, making him someone else's problem. And not only that, he transfers him to a deployable unit! Well if anything is going to push a budding Islamic extremist over the edge, it is the threat of being deployed to the Middle East to be part of the forces engaged in the "Holy War" against his religion! He finally snaps and crosses the line from extremist to terrorist, committing murder for the purpose of making a religious/political statement - turning his fanatical anti-US/anti-infidel opinions into actions.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

While that really is the reason I started the thread, a much more serioius implication just occurred to me:

Perhaps the cause of the media's aversion to engaging the issue of Islamic extremism is related to the military's apparent failure to properly engage the issue of Islamic extremism here! Perhaps the PC culture (if that is what is causing it) that has the media ignoring the issue is also what caused the military to fail to react to the warning signs Hasan gave them.

You got there before me damn it.

 

[russ_watters]

Yes, but press is not the best way for anyone to get the data.

So unless you have data derived directly from the criminal investigation and not CNN/ whatever the best course for now is not to jump at conclusions. It may be terrorism. It may be another thing. We don't know. At least not yet.

How does that make it OK for CNN to investigate and forward one theory but not the other, when evidence they have access to points to the other?

And I don't buy for a second that people are capable of sitting back and not forminig opinions. That's not how the human brain works. The human brain searches for reasons for things happening - that's what motivates our quest for knowledge!

 

[arildno]

Media is driven by money. Theyll do anything for better ratings , and in some cases even to manipul;ate masses according with political view of divisional factors.

I any even, even if the coverage is "sensationalistic" there is no need to fall in the other extreme and prefer "terrorist" coverages

b) Data provided by the media need not be inaccurate, and can be used, in a rational manner, to construct a probability distribution model over possible motives, obviously sensitive to further information gathering.

Key words "need not be inaccurate" also , need not to be accurate
Key words "further information gathering".[/QUOTE]

There's nothing irrational to construct probability models on basis of a few putative facts.

What IS irrational is
a) the unwillingness to take new info into the models as it appears
b) A dogmatic refusal to recognize the possibility that this incident might have something to do with N.H's religious views.

 

[DanP]

How many Christian terrorist organizations do you know of?

Attempted and executed terrorist plots?

Compare that to the number of muslim terrorist activities, and try to achieve the rational conclusion that while the Nidal Hasan event might well be an Islamic extremist action, whereas in the case of this fantasy Christian individual of yours it would be extremely UNLIKELY that it was Christian extremism behind it (unless it takes place in say, Congo, Southern Sudan or Northern Ireland, where that hypothesis has some plausibility).

I can't see any rational conclusions could be derived from the number of terrorist organizations and Nidal case. Emotional ones, yes.

 

[DanP]

a) the unwillingness to take new info into the models as it appears
b) A dogmatic refusal to recognize the possibility that this incident might have something to do with N.H's religious views.

Those holds very well in reverse as well.

I.e: A dogmatic refusal to recognize the possibility that this incident might *not* have something to do with N.H's religious viewsIt's simply to few data to jump on conclusions. Unless you are part of the criminal investigation and you didn't told us that.

 

[arildno]

His performace as an officer in the US Army and counselor suffers. He receives bad performance evaluations. The Army needs warm bodies and doesn't want to separate him. His CO doesn't want to be seen as anti-Muslim. His CO does the expedient thing: he transfers him, making him someone else's problem.

A problem with this, russ, is that his promotion to Major occurred as late as May 2009, as I have already mentioned.

His career was flying, having participated in a Homeland Security seminar the previous year.

 

[arildno]

Those holds very well in reverse as well.

I.e: A dogmatic refusal to recognize the possibility that this incident might *not* have something to do with N.H's religious views
.

Neither Russ, me or anyone else have done anything like that.

In contrast to you and other leftists.

 

[russ_watters]

It seems to me that people often try to find rationalizations for their aggressive and antisocial feelings when they are stressed or emotionally disturbed. As already noted we can likely consider most violent extremists to be mentally or emotionally imbalanced. Many terrorists, muslim or otherwise, have most likely experienced some loss or stress which has influenced them to follow the path they have chosen. Evidence would seem to indicate that Hasan was making similar rationalizations for apparent antisocial attitudes. The theory that he was suffering from some sort of stress and lost control does not preclude a desire to commit a terrorist act against the people whom he apparently saw as the source of his emotional disturbance. [emphasis added]

Yes, that is something I've argued around, but not explained as well as you just did. There are many paths toward becoming a terrorist or mass murderer and being teased/taunted into it is one of them. But that is part of the Islamic extremist motive, not separate from it. The media is saying he was taunted in an apologetic way and not discussing it as part of an Islamic terrorist motive.

 

[Astronuc]

Who's assertions? Mine? I never made such assertions as Lisa is disputing.

The key assertion.

We have very strong indications that this was an act of Islamic extremist terrorism . . . .

I'm looking at the legal definition of "terrorism". Was Hasan tyring to obtain a political objective using violence, or did he just flip out and go on a rampage - just like Timothy McVeigh flipped out and blew up a Federal building? Was McVeigh's act an act of Christian terrorism?

What has Hasan written that would indicate that he was religiously motivated to embark on a killing spree?

There appear to be a number of news articles that discuss Hasan and his religious background. But they are being careful not to automatically link Islam (Islamic) with extremism or terrorism.

As for

Furthermore, even as late as January 2009, Nidal Hasan had, according to WorldNetDaily, the honor of having served as a Task Force participant associated with "Homeland Security Policy Institute at George Washington University ":

Corsi hangs his entire allegation on a document produced on May 19, 2009 by The George Washington University Homeland Security Policy Institute entitled "Thinking Anew, Security Priorities For The Next Administration." In that document, Nidal Hasan is listed, on page 29, as a "Task Force Event Participant." He was one of hundreds of people listed as a "participant."

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/06/iwndis-jerome-corsi-claim_n_348461.html&cp

Of course what Hasan did is extremist, and it has elements of terroism, namely violence and homicide. But it's not yet clear what motivated him.

 

[DanP]

In contrast to you and other leftists.

Another purely emotional statement. You know nothing about my political views. I would very grateful to you if you stick to rationality and not pure emotions. I can understand the huge emotional load of the incident, but frankly ... you are not to label ppl. I hope I made myself very clear.

 

[rootX]

Intellectual honesty. A news service is supposed to report the news. If an act is motivated by PTSD, they should report the act is motivated by PTSD. If an act is motivated by religious fanaticism, they should report that it is motivated by religious fanatacism.

There are not enough evidences so they should just stay neutral IMO.

1) There are quite a few Muslims in the US, people who have Middle Eastern names (even though they are not religious), and people who look like Muslims
2) In the past, there had been some incidents where people who look like/are muslims were attacked (few). There have been many other cases where Americans had irrational phobia of all Muslims/Muslims names.
3) If media goes and blames straight the religion, I can expect the voilence incidents or undesired discrimation against all Muslims/people with muslim names.

So, I think media is doing good job in preventing number 2.

I've made no statement whatsoever about Islam in general. The only mudslinging I'm doing here is aimed at the news media!

I was talking about the posts by everyone (not you).

 

[russ_watters]

A problem with this, russ, is that his promotion to Major occurred as late as May 2009, as I have already mentioned.

His career was flying, having participated in a Homeland Security seminar the previous year. [emphasis added]

I'm not so sure that's true. As an officer, your first two promotions are scheduled - essentially guaranteed. They happen automatically unless there is an extreme reason to deny them to you. Your third promotion (to major) is not guaranteed, but happens at a particular time. Every 6 months or a year (can't remember which), batches of eligible candidates are promoted. If the needs of the military and availiability of candiates in your field are right for you, you may get promoted with less than stellar performance evaluations.

That is, assuming such complaints even made it into his performace evauations!

By the way - that's April 2008, not 2009. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572509,00.html

 

[arildno]

I'm not so sure that's true. As an officer, your first two promotions are scheduled - essentially guaranteed. They happen automatically unless there is an extreme reason to deny them to you. Your third promotion (to major) is not guaranteed, but happens at a particular time. Every 6 months or a year (can't remember which), batches of eligible candidates are promoted. If the needs of the military and availiability of candiates in your field are right for you, you may get promoted with less than stellar performance evaluations.

Thanks for this update.


By the way - that's April 2008, not 2009. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572509,00.html[/QUOTE]
Okay, then the biography as given i Washington Post was a bit unclear on that issue.

His promotion seems then to have happened directly prior to his engagement in the Homeland Security Task Force?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

How many Christian terrorist organizations do you know of?

Attempted and executed terrorist plots?

Compare that to the number of muslim terrorist activities, and try to achieve the rational conclusion that while the Nidal Hasan event might well be an Islamic extremist action, whereas in the case of this fantasy Christian individual of yours it would be extremely UNLIKELY that it was Christian extremism behind it (unless it takes place in say, Congo, Southern Sudan or Northern Ireland, where that hypothesis has some plausibility).

There are several militant organizations in the US that identify themselves as christian and could rightly be labeled as christian extremists. Activities such as abortion clinic bombings and lynchings are easily terrorist activities (and our intelligence community certainly takes domestic terrorism of any stripe seriously) so we could likely figure that terrorism by christian extremists is more prevalent in the US than muslim terrorism.

Since our population is mostly christian simply being christian is hardly evidence enough to prioritize any theories that a violent crime is terrorism. Of course if the christian has previously made statements supporting extremist organizations that identify themselves as christian and perhaps uses some sort of christian slogan de guerre before committing the violent act I doubt anyone would hesitate to speculate on the persons motivations.

 

[Astronuc]

According to the biography in Washington Post, Hasan enlisted in the Army after high school (probably ~ 1988), so he's been in the Army for about 20 years before he flipped out.

I did hear a colonel or general indicating that the Army is going to have to look at how the Army missed possible warning signs.

The WP reported -

The Associated Press reported that Hasan attracted the attention of law enforcement authorities in recent months after an Internet posting under the screen name "NidalHasan" compared Islamic suicide bombers to Japanese kamikaze pilots. "To say that this soldier committed suicide is inappropriate," the posting read. "It's more appropriate to say he is a brave hero that sacrificed his life for a more noble cause."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/06/AR2009110600907_2.html

I presume the authorities will review Hasan's writings in order to develop a psychological profile, as well as looking for clues indicating his motivations.

 

[DanP]

The WP reported - I presume the authorities will review Hasan's writings in order to develop a psychological profile, as well as looking for clues indicating his motivations.

Its the only sensible thing to do.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I can understand the huge emotional load of the incident...

Arildno is not American, I doubt he feels any great emotional load over this incident beyond what he would feel for any group of innocent people mowed down by gunfire (though Arildno may have preferred I not inform you so that he could see if you would continue misinformed comments while chastising him for making misinformed comments ;-)).


By the way I know a DanPratt, would you happen to be she?

 

[DanP]

Arildno is not American, I doubt he feels any great emotional load over this incident beyond what he would feel for any group of innocent people mowed down by gunfire (though Arildno may have preferred I not inform you so that he could see if you would continue misinformed comments while chastising him for making misinformed comments ;-)).By the way I know a DanPratt, would you happen to be she?

No, sorry, I am a not she.

Frankly, I couldn't care less Arialdno is an American or not and what he prefers. I am not chastising him for making misinformed comments, but emotional ones. The term "chastising" is too strong, I am actually having fun reading his comments.

 

[arildno]

There are several militant organizations in the US that identify themselves as christian and could rightly be labeled as christian extremists. Activities such as abortion clinic bombings and lynchings are easily terrorist activities (and our intelligence community certainly takes domestic terrorism of any stripe seriously) so we could likely figure that terrorism by christian extremists is more prevalent in the US than muslim terrorism.

Since our population is mostly christian simply being christian is hardly evidence enough to prioritize any theories that a violent crime is terrorism. Of course if the christian has previously made statements supporting extremist organizations that identify themselves as christian and perhaps uses some sort of christian slogan de guerre before committing the violent act I doubt anyone would hesitate to speculate on the persons motivations.

True enough, mea culpa. I had a bit too European angle on this, where Christian extremism is largely confined to Northern Ireland.

We had a case of a sect of puritanical, newly converted Laplanders in 1856 here in Norway, where the local priest and law enforcement agent were murdered.

But, it is, admittedly, some time ago..