News Turkey Problems: CNN Update on US Ambassador & Iraq Bombing

[kach22i]

I did. Various sources refer to "a few thousand" as of June 2007 (based on "off the record" quotes from Turkish army officials); one source states 50,000 went into Iraq in 1997 (http://www.redorbit.com/news/international/958361/turkish_officials_troops_enter_iraq/index.html )

Also of interest, from 2003: http://malaysia.usembassy.gov/wf/wf1007_turkishtroops.html

This is exactly what I'm talking about!

Look dude maybe over in Turkey when your counrty invades another country it's all in secret and all the quotes are from "undisclosed sources" for fear of death or your family being thrown in a Turkish prison. In American, (at least prior to GWB) we do things differently.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/international/958361/turkish_officials_troops_enter_iraq/index.html

Two senior security officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media, said the raid was limited in scope and that it did not constitute the kind of large incursion that Turkish leaders have been discussing in recent weeks.

Did you find an "official" troop number?

Of course not.

Undisclosed sources...and you live with that?

The U.S. military said it could not confirm the reports but was "very concerned."

And so am I.

EDIT: I read the Maylasia link...
http://malaysia.usembassy.gov/wf/wf1007_turkishtroops.html
Proves my point, and FYI a US press secretaries announcement does not make a "fact". Please go beyond the headline.

As far as the Iraqi Governing Council goes, we have not seen any formal Governing Council statement or communiqué regarding the Turkish decision.

QUESTION: Actually, maybe they didn't come out with a formal statement on Turkey on this recent vote, but the Iraqi foreign minister and many other members of the council have said that they don't believe that any neighboring state should be part of the coalition because they feel as if they would bring their own agendas into their duties and --

MR. BOUCHER: Again, has the Governing Council made a statement? No. Have individuals on the Governing Council said things? Yes. And we expect there to be different views and some debate. This is an issue that, I think, as we said at the time some of those statements were made -- that we will work with the Iraqis, we will work with the Governing Council, and arrive at conclusions, hopefully together, about how Turkish troops might contribute to stability in Iraq.

 

[EnumaElish]

In American, (at least prior to GWB) we do things differently.

Absolutely (and I take exception the "prior to GWB" bit); that's why I think much of this is "old news."

 

[kach22i]

Absolutely (and I take exception the "prior to GWB" bit); that's why I think much of this is "old news."

Unless a government acknowledges it (ours, theirs whatever), and the press verifies it, how can anything be considered "old news"?

Allow me provide a few examples......

US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo; in Iraq, Afghanistan - UN
http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/06/24/afx2110388.html

GENEVA (AFX) - Washington has, for the first time, acknowledged to the United Nations that prisoners have been tortured at US detention centres in Guantanamo Bay, as well as Afghanistan and Iraq, a UN source said.

TIA now verifies flight of Saudis Tampa International Airport
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/06/09/Tampabay/TIA_now_verifies_flig.shtml

TAMPA - Two days after the Sept. 11 attacks, with most of the nation's air traffic still grounded, a small jet landed at Tampa International Airport, picked up three young Saudi men and left.

The men, one of them thought to be a member of the Saudi royal family, were accompanied by a former FBI agent and a former Tampa police officer on the flight to Lexington, Ky.

The Saudis then took another flight out of the country. The two ex-officers returned to TIA a few hours later on the same plane.

For nearly three years, White House, aviation and law enforcement officials have insisted the flight never took place and have denied published reports and widespread Internet speculation about its purpose.

But now, at the request of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks, TIA officials have confirmed that the flight did take place and have supplied details.

See?

We all feel terrible about the truth, but we feel good about knowing about it.

 

[kach22i]

[quote Originally Posted by SUZAN FRASER, Associated Press Writer
In Washington, President Bush said the United States was making clear to Turkey it should not send a massive number of troops into Iraq.

Bush said Turkey has had troops stationed in Iraq "for quite a while."

"We don't think it's in their interest to send more troops in."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071017/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey [/QUOTE]

The quote in the article was different yesterday, they reworded it and added information. Misleading information I think, they are lying to us again, it's a much larger and explosive situation.

Originally Posted by SUZAN FRASER, Associated Press Writer...edited the next day?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071017/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey

Bush said Turkey has had troops stationed in northern Iraq "for quite a while," a reference to about 1,500 soldiers deployed for years to monitor the rebel Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, with the permission of Iraqi Kurd authorities.

 

[J77]

Shouldn't this thread be entitled "Problems in Northern Iraq"?

 

[kach22i]

Shouldn't this thread be entitled "Problems in Northern Iraq"?

The Anatolia peninsula (modern Turkey), the Eastern Turkey/Western Armenia part (including Mt Ararat where Noah's arc landed) and the northern part of Iraq are the historic lands of ancient Armenia. The mostly nomadic Kurds of the time replaced the Armenians (as reward for their help in killing Armenians) who were ran off their land or murdered in place during the Armenian genocide of 1915.

Call it what you want, the area is deep in history and the history of disputes.

Some old maps on these webpages:

http://www.littlearmenia.com/html/little_armenia/armenian_history.asp

http://www.richardsmith.net/armenia/sako.html

Notice all the "B.C." dates.

 

[J77]

...but I thought the crux of the immediate problem was the Turkish troups going into Northern Iraq, after the PKK.

ie. In Iraqi terms, the North is quite stable. Hence why the US doesn't want any more problems on their already overflowing plate.

 

[kach22i]

...but I thought the crux of the immediate problem was the Turkish troups going into Northern Iraq, after the PKK.

ie. In Iraqi terms, the North is quite stable. Hence why the US doesn't want any more problems on their already overflowing plate.

Well as the edited by mysterious powers the AP story indicated there are already at least 1,500 Turkish troops in Iraq....and GWB has admited they have "been there for a while".

So now the "immediate problem" seems to be a political one between the USA and Turkey and the Kurds and the elected Iraqis in power.

Situation normal AFUA.

 

[EnumaElish]

The Anatolia peninsula (modern Turkey), the western part (including Mt Ararat where Noah's arc landed) and the northern part of Iraq are the historic lands of ancient Armenia.

You mean, the Eastern part. Otherwise you'll need to sort it out with the Greeks.

 

[kach22i]

You mean, the Eastern part. Otherwise you'll need to sort it out with the Greeks.

I did write Eastern.

Good catch, I was thinking one thing and typing another. The correction is in Italics now.

Eastern Turkey/Western Armenia

...and yes the Greeks were all over the place including the middle upper part too. They left some nice ruins, not all of which have been bulldozed away by the Turkish government.

 

[EnumaElish]

...and yes the Greeks were all over the place including the middle upper part too. They left some nice ruins, not all of which have been bulldozed away by the Turkish government.

Or passively left to rot, or expatriated by the British...

 

[russ_watters]

Looks like Turkey is going in!
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/17/turkey.iraq/index.html

I can't say I blame them - I wouldn't even say what they are doing is wrong. This is a not-too-uncommon situation where a group is using a country as a staging ground for attacks on a neighbor and that country is doing nothing to stop them. IMO, that gives the country that is being attacked the right to enter the other country to stop them.

IMO, American incursion into countries neighboring Vietnam should have been legal as well (I'm not sure what the law actually says about such things). Same goes for recent American incursions into Pakistan.

 

[Art]

...but I thought the crux of the immediate problem was the Turkish troups going into Northern Iraq, after the PKK.

ie. In Iraqi terms, the North is quite stable. Hence why the US doesn't want any more problems on their already overflowing plate.

The vote in the Turkish parliament is largely symbolic. There have been 23 large scale incursions into N Iraq by Turkish forces since 1997 and they already have a military base in N Iraq manned by 1500 troops which has been there since 1997 so it is hard to see what difference this resolution will make in operational terms.

It seems more designed to elevate the problem of Kurd separatists in the minds of the US and Iraqi gov'ts. Iran has the same problem with the PKK trying to carve a homeland out of it's territory too, with according to Seymour Hersh, US and Israeli backing who see an opportunity to destabilize Iran however this 'support' for a terrorist group is also having an unintended destabilizing effect on Turkey.

 

[J77]

So it's just hype to get everyone in on cracking down on the PKK?

I'm off to Istanbul in a week or so, it'll be interesting to see what the news says up in that small corner of Turkey.

(On another note, I'd love someday to climb Ararat -- an impressive sight!)

 

[kach22i]

So it's just hype to get everyone in on cracking down on the PKK?

I'm off to Istanbul in a week or so, it'll be interesting to see what the news says up in that small corner of Turkey.

(On another note, I'd love someday to climb Ararat -- an impressive sight!)

I know from TV programs that troops are stationed there to prevent rouge or "want-a-be" archaeologist from crawling all over it trying to find evidence of Noah's arc. It's been a source of fustration for scientist and the religious alike.

 

[kach22i]

There have been 23 large scale incursions into N Iraq by Turkish forces since 1997 and they already have a military base in N Iraq manned by 1500 troops which has been there since 1997

Since I have had difficulty in the past finding accurate or verifiable information on this, could you please direct me to a few links to support the statement?

I believe the statements are true, just want supporting data.

Cheers.

 

[Art]

Since I have had difficulty in the past finding accurate or verifiable information on this, could you please direct me to a few links to support the statement?

I believe the statements are true, just want supporting data.

Cheers.

here you are, a cross section from 3 continents http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/1018/1192565704859.html

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22600315-1702,00.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-turkey18oct18,1,1987092.story?track=rss&ctrack=1&cset=true

If you google on the key terms I used in my post you'll find dozens more.

 

[kach22i]

here you are, a cross section from 3 continents http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/1018/1192565704859.html

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22600315-1702,00.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-turkey18oct18,1,1987092.story?track=rss&ctrack=1&cset=true

If you google on the key terms I used in my post you'll find dozens more.

I did a very extensive search back in 2003, I'm tellling you it was like pulling teeth to get any information at all.

I had to register to read the LA Times article, other than that every looks good, thanks.

 

[EnumaElish]

SIRNAK, Turkey - Kurdish rebels ambushed a military unit near Turkey's border with Iraq early Sunday, killing 12 soldiers and increasing pressure on the Turkish government to stage attacks against guerrilla camps in Iraq.

Iraq's president, a Kurd, ordered Kurdish guerrillas to lay down their weapons or leave, but Turkey's deputy prime minister said words were no longer enough: "We are expecting concrete steps from them."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071021/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_kurds

 

[kach22i]

An interesting article from TIME / CNN.

Behind Turkey's Kurdish Problem
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1675165,00.html?xid=rss-topstories
And a Kurdistan is a major red line for Turkey. Even the word is taboo.

 

[hagopbul]

about hrant dink

in the Turkey some time it is a costume to kill some one and escape the punishment by giving the mission to a child or a teenager.i mean that hrant dink is killed by the turkis government.

 

[EnumaElish]

in the Turkey some time it is a costume to kill some one and escape the punishment by giving the mission to a child or a teenager.i mean that hrant dink is killed by the turkis government.

Was he killed by a child or a teenager?

At the end of the day anything's possible; including CIA assassinating John F. Kennedy & Martin Luther King.

 

[kach22i]

in the Turkey some time it is a costume to kill some one and escape the punishment by giving the mission to a child or a teenager.i mean that hrant dink is killed by the turkis government.

The pictures and the way the mater was handled sure did not help appearences much.

Murder trial begins with defence lawyer calling the prosecutors Armenian bastards"! Observe justice in Turkey!
http://www.zimbio.com/Ogun+Samast/articles/12/Murder+trial+begins+defence+lawyer+calling


Hrant Dink's killer: I am not sorry
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/5817465.asp?gid=74


murderer of Hrant Dink was treated as a hero with the police officers taking photos with the murderer with the Turkish flag as a backdrop
http://iararat.wordpress.com/2007/02/01/hrant-dink%E2%80%99s-murderer-treated-as-hero-under-arrest/

Scandal in Turkey over photographs of police posing with alleged killer of journalist

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/02/02/europe/EU-GEN-Turkey-Journalist-Killed.php

ISTANBUL, Turkey: The Turkish media published photographs and video on Friday of police and military police officers posing with the alleged killer of an ethnic Armenian journalist, as newspapers denounced it as "hero treatment" of the suspect.

The photographs show 17-year-old nationalist Ogun Samast, holding out a Turkish flag and posing with officers, some in uniform. Behind Samast a poster with another Turkish flag carries the words of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the revered founder of modern Turkey: "The nation's land is sacred. It cannot be left to fate."

Samast is charged with the Jan.19 killing of Hrant Dink, a 52-year-old ethnic Armenian journalist who had angered Turkish nationalists with repeated assertions that the mass killings of Armenians around the time of World War I was genocide.

The Turkish media was outraged by the photographs and video. "Shoulder to shoulder with the triggerman: suspected killer Samast was given the hero treatment," the Sabah daily reported on its front page.

Pictures - three in series: Killer in middle, police on each side posing.
http://www.amnistia.net/news/articles/genarmen/genarmen800.htm

 

[verafloyd]

I'll chip in. Don't you think that turning the thread into a hate propaganda is equally anti-democratic as what fanatic nationalist Turks do in Turkey? At one hand there are teenagers killing an author for nothing and blaming the people of the same ethnic identity for bearing the same "poisonous" thoughts in their minds, and on the other, there are "fighters of democracy" arrogating the mistakes of limited number of people to a whole nation. This is not democracy. This is just an example of distorting the truth.

Since you're capable of finding links supporting your thesis in Hrant Dink case I wonder how you can miss thousands of people demonstrating against the murderers of Hrant only a few hours after the murder.

How come that you equate Kurds to the PKK and still have not written even a single word about the Kurds killed by the PKK just because they refused to provide supply? I'm having difficulty in understanding why you are not still questioning why the PKK in the past has targeted doctors and teachers working in the region. I wonder how you would define an organisation claiming to fight for the rights of the Kurdish citizens of a country but still feeling ok when poisoning water depots and dams (that feeds a city where the population is dominated by the Kurdish citizens) just to make the military facility run out of fresh water.

No sir. You are not trying to discuss anything. You are doing hate propaganda.

Regards,
verafloyd

 

[kach22i]

I'll chip in. Don't you think that turning the thread into a hate propaganda

I guess you are talking to me, let me say I catch most of what you are saying, while other parts are rather fuzzy.

When "hagopbul" posted that the Turkish government may of had a hand in Hrant Dink's murder I took it upon myself to supply some links which could support that thought and never stated that I was going to open up another can of worms and show all sides or aspects of a story. That would take a book, maybe several.

A crowd of over 100,000 Turks marching in the streets and carrying signs (and not all of them marching were of Armenian descent) saying "We are all Hrant Dink" is inspiring and heart warming to say the least. There is hope, there are good people, good Turks, good Armenians marching together.

The pictures don't lie, sorry they offend you, they offend me too but must be seen as the truth shall be known.

I'm not on the side of the PKK, I'm not on Turkey's side, I wish the world would of let Iraq alone, we all would have been better off.

 

[chemisttree]

Except for the Kurds.

 

[kach22i]

Except for the Kurds.

True, but you have to admit the Kurds had a good thing with the "NO-FLY-ZONE" enforced and Saddam not allowed to take troops into the area for fear of US air strikes.

This is the era which started the Kurds having their own oil money flowing and lots of traffic and trade over the Turkish border.

I think the trade and money flowing between the unofficial Kurdish nation and the Turks is why the Turkish govenment did not want the US to make war on Saddam and use Turkish bases to do so.

Just an observation, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[EnumaElish]

I think the trade and money flowing between the unofficial Kurdish nation and the Turks is why the Turkish govenment did not want the US to make war on Saddam and use Turkish bases to do so.

It seemed like it was a cost/benefit analysis that had "war, disruption & refugees" on the one hand, and "incentives" on the other hand. It was a very close call in the Turkish Parliament, and it lost only by one vote.

High-level Iraqi government officials also had visited Turkey at the brink of the vote; they probably tried to persuade the Turkish government that Iraq did not have WMDs and it was all a pretext to invade Iraq. They may have played the "good neighbors" and "muslim brothers" cards. But it seemed like economic factors played a major role in the end.

 

[verafloyd]

I think the trade and money flowing between the unofficial Kurdish nation and the Turks is why the Turkish govenment did not want the US to make war on Saddam and use Turkish bases to do so.

Just an observation, correct me if I'm wrong.

Not exactly. Erdogan government tried so hard to make Turkey a part of the war or at least provide the help the US needed. The opposition and the 94% of the public were against a war in Iraq. The huge antiwar demonstration held in Ankara with the participation of around one million citizens proved to be the one of the largest act of protest after the 1980 era thus making a great deal of the government parliaments take side with the opposition.

If it were trade and money, the Turkish government would support the US against Saddam as Saddam's authority was a great barricade preventing Turkish companies making business in the region. Not surprisingly, today, since Saddam is gone, the trade life in North Iraq is dominated by Turkish companies.

It seemed like it was a cost/benefit analysis that had "war, disruption & refugees" on the one hand, and "incentives" on the other hand. It was a very close call in the Turkish Parliament, and it lost only by one vote.

Unlike the common belief in the international society, Turkey's attitude towards refugees have been positive. During the First Gulf War, the EU spent $30 million while Turkey alone spent $270 million. Also, the army had its soldiers work actively in building temporary cities for the incoming refugees.

And a not-so-important note: It was not one vote but four :)

High-level Iraqi government officials also had visited Turkey at the brink of the vote; they probably tried to persuade the Turkish government that Iraq did not have WMDs and it was all a pretext to invade Iraq. They may have played the "good neighbors" and "muslim brothers" cards. But it seemed like economic factors played a major role in the end.

Even the US-lover Erdogan government never questioned whether Iraq had WMDs or not. People in Turkey all knew that it was just a lie to invade Iraq for oil. That said, I doubt if the visit you mentioned played a more important role than the demonstration I mentioned above.

EDIT: Typo

 

[chemisttree]

True, but you have to admit the Kurds had a good thing with the "NO-FLY-ZONE" enforced and Saddam not allowed to take troops into the area for fear of US air strikes.

Aw c'mon! Now you're just making stuff up! That second statement just cracks me up!