Understand GR: Tips for Ancient Non-Mathematical Fossils

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around strategies for understanding General Relativity (GR) for individuals with limited mathematical background, particularly focusing on resources and approaches that do not heavily rely on tensors. Participants share their experiences and recommendations for reading materials while also touching on related concepts such as "dumb holes" and their acoustic analogues.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses a desire to improve their understanding of GR without delving deeply into mathematical concepts, noting they are currently reading "Gravity" by Schutz.
  • Another participant suggests that being able to read Schutz indicates a sufficient level of understanding.
  • Discussion about "dumb holes" arises, with one participant sharing a personal anecdote about encountering a "dumb hole" while on a submarine, indicating a lack of sonar detection in such areas.
  • Recommendations for additional reading include J L Martin's "General Relativity," which is described as accessible and practical for calculations.
  • Some participants mention the importance of understanding tensors for a deeper grasp of GR, with references to Eric Poisson's and Sergei Winitzki's resources for learning about tensors in a more approachable manner.
  • There is a mention of ongoing research into acoustic analogues of black holes by some researchers, such as Unruh.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the importance of improving mathematical understanding to grasp GR fully, but there is no consensus on the best approach or resources, as various suggestions and personal experiences are shared.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty about the relationship between sonar technology and the concept of "dumb holes," indicating a need for further clarification on these topics. Additionally, there are varying levels of comfort with mathematical concepts among participants, which may affect their recommendations.

sonar
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What should an ancient old non-mathematical fossil do when trying to understand GR? I'm reading "Gravity" by Shutz, no problem so far, but understand I need to up my game. What do you all recommend? Note: by non-mathematical, I'm not up to speed in tensors, get most of what else there is. What's next without blowing me out of the water.
Note(2), anyone wanting to know practical knowledge of the physics of sound in water in regard to tactical usages, let me know.
 
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If you can read Schutz, that's good enough!

So how does one detect a dumb hole?
 
I'll move from Gravity to his next one, actually gravity is interesting by not too hard.
Don't know about dumb holes, however my last boat years ago was the San Francisco which found a dumb hole (underwater mountain) off of Guam and almost sunk herself. No way sonar could hear that...
 
sonar said:
I'll move from Gravity to his next one, actually gravity is interesting by not too hard.
Don't know about dumb holes, however my last boat years ago was the San Francisco which found a dumb hole (underwater mountain) off of Guam and almost sunk herself. No way sonar could hear that...

You could also try J L Martin's "General Relativity" which I found very accessible and gets one doing calculations quickly.

Wow, so how did you get out of that dumb hole?

Some guys like Unruh are looking for dumb holes that are acoustic analogues of black holes.
 
I'll give it a shot, still want to get up to tensors, that's the only way to 'understand' GR, from what I know.
The closest thing to a dumb hole, a strong negative gradient for SVP(SSP) drives sound to the bottom, active and passive sonar can't hear while in that, unless beneath the sound source, very close aboard. Not the best place to be.
 
sonar said:
I'll give it a shot, still want to get up to tensors, that's the only way to 'understand' GR, from what I know.
The closest thing to a dumb hole, a strong negative gradient for SVP(SSP) drives sound to the bottom, active and passive sonar can't hear while in that, unless beneath the sound source, very close aboard. Not the best place to be.

Martin's book has tensors along with the physics.

You can also try chapter 1 of Eric Poisson's "Advanced general relativity" http://www.physics.uoguelph.ca/poisson/research/notes.html which gives a summary of tensors the "old fashioned way", and Sergei Winitzki's lecture notes in which the coordinate-independent definition of tensors comes to the fore http://homepages.physik.uni-muenchen.de/~Winitzki/T7/ .

It's not much different from vectors which can be defined without coordinates (a length and a direction) or with coordinates (some matrix of numbers). The only thing to remember is that in curved space, there are no position vectors, only velocity vectors.
 
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