Understanding Barandes' microscopic theory of causality

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SUMMARY

This discussion centers on J. A. Barandes' pre-print titled "New Prospects for a Causally Local Formulation of Quantum Theory" (arXiv 2402.16935, 2024), which proposes a new interpretation of quantum mechanics that challenges Bell's theorem. Barandes argues that his microphysical notion of causation allows for a more straightforward criterion for causal locality, potentially leading to a hidden-variables formulation of quantum theory. However, participants express skepticism regarding Barandes' claims, particularly concerning the implications for entanglement and the validity of his definitions compared to established theories. The conversation highlights the need for further clarification and understanding of Barandes' approach.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of Bell's theorem and its implications in quantum mechanics.
  • Familiarity with the concepts of causal locality and nonlocality in quantum theory.
  • Knowledge of Bayesian networks and their application in modeling probabilistic systems.
  • Basic comprehension of quantum mechanics, particularly entanglement and hidden variables.
NEXT STEPS
  • Read Barandes' pre-print "New Prospects for a Causally Local Formulation of Quantum Theory" (arXiv 2402.16935).
  • Explore the implications of Bell's theorem on hidden-variable theories.
  • Investigate Bayesian networks and their role in understanding quantum correlations.
  • Examine critiques and analyses of Barandes' interpretations in the context of quantum mechanics.
USEFUL FOR

Researchers, physicists, and students interested in the foundations of quantum mechanics, particularly those exploring alternative interpretations of causality and locality in quantum theory.

  • #331
pines-demon said:
Can you provide a simple example of what would that look like?
Some links that might be relevant.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2402.16935
In section VIII the formalism is applied to a basic EPR scenario.

https://shared.jacobbarandes.com/documents/double-slit-interference-unistochastic-lecture-notes
Lecture notes on the double-slit experiment

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2512.18105
The most recent paper applying the formalism to the CHSH game.
 
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  • #332
It would be very instructive for everyone if Barandés took a paper by Zeilinger (a world-renowned authority on nonlocality) and translated it completely into his own terms.
 
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  • #333
javisot said:
It would be very instructive for everyone if Barandés took a paper by Zeilinger (a world-renowned authority on nonlocality) and translated it completely into his own terms.
which paper?
 
  • #334
Morbert said:
Some links that might be relevant.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2402.16935
In section VIII the formalism is applied to a basic EPR scenario.

https://shared.jacobbarandes.com/documents/double-slit-interference-unistochastic-lecture-notes
Lecture notes on the double-slit experiment

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2512.18105
The most recent paper applying the formalism to the CHSH game.
I mean something more human level. Imagine that one tries to reproduce an entanglement experiment à la Mermin, you drop some assumption and you get an interpretation. Bohmians remove the idea that particles cannot communicate, superdeterminists remove the idea that detectors are not conspiring with the particles/experimenters, but what would be a good analogy for Barandes?
 
  • #336
javisot said:
translated into Barandés
Do you have a reason to put an accent in Barandes -> Barandés? It is not the first time I seen it here.
 
  • #337
pines-demon said:
Do you have a reason to put an accent in Barandes -> Barandés? It is not the first time I seen it here.
It must be my translator; I misspelled it once and now it always translate it that way by default. I don't know how to fix it...
 
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  • #338
pines-demon said:
I mean something more human level. Imagine that one tries to reproduce an entanglement experiment à la Mermin, you drop some assumption and you get an interpretation. Bohmians remove the idea that particles cannot communicate, superdeterminists remove the idea that detectors are not conspiring with the particles/experimenters, but what would be a good analogy for Barandes?
I would say... unlike bell HV, which correlates STATES via objective beables of which we are just ignorant; so we marginalize over them. Barandes constrains the stochastic behaviour (ie this is what replaces dynamical law in his view) of two entangled systems. Stochastic-quantum dictionary says this holds, but WHY this is, in some intuitive way, does not follow from correspondence. He just offers two views, and we can choose in which view, the open problems seems easier to solve. Trying to understand dynamical law and causation.

So I think any answer to your question, must add something that isn't in Barandes papers.

For me the real question here, is where is the physical support, ie what enforces, physical law? The normal system dynamics paradigm of hamiltionian flow certainly does NOT answer this either! Physical law is just assume to be a mathematical constraint that we think nature follows. It certainly raises questions on the nature of causality, even befor Barander paper.

In barandes view, instead of a hamiltonian flow in some statespace, we seen to have a collection of stochastic subsystems where the only "law" is constraints on the transitions. Here the question becomes, how can you enforce such transition probabilities, and have them correlated like in the entangled systems - without a bell type hidden variable? Barandes does not explain WHY. His correspondence just shows - this is true if QM is true.

It is a matter of ambigous interpretation and extrapolation to find the explicit analogy you seek. But what seems most natural to me at least is to think that the correlated stochastic behaviour is mediated with a common evolved history, that is preserved (ie entanglement not broken) as long as the two subsystems are not disturbed by the environment. This does not involve a bell type HV. And stochastic behaviour is not a "state", it is only revelaed when you interact with something. That is exactly what we have in these experiments.

To make this analogy even deeper, one unavoidably enters the kind of speculations we arent supposed to do on here.

/Fredrik
 

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